Mostafa Gaweesh

full interview

I am Osama Jawish from ” Witness change ” Organization. We are a group of Journalists and we are here today as a part of our project ” 1 thousand dreams “, in which we are trying to document the stories and the journeys of 1 thousand refugees in Europe. We are now at the preparation and recording stage of the project, and everything is supposed to finish in March/ 2021. before we start are you happy to be a part of 1 thousand dreams project  
For sure, very happy. This is a promising project and I pray to God to make you successful.

Have you checked the papers? Is this information yours? 
I have checked all the papers of this project, and I have signed and confirmed to everything written on them, and I wish for this project to be successful and promising- God willing

If at any part of the interview you want to stop and take a break or you want to remove any part of our talk or you prefer us to not mention your name or your family’s name, please just let us know. 
Okay, I have checked the conditions in the papers and I understand the process in detail, and I am willing to be a part of it -God willing.

Dr. Mustafa, let’s start from your life now. You are living in London now, Where do you live exactly? and with whom do you live ? 
I am living in London at the moment, I have been living here for a year, the city is comfortable. I am living with my wife, son and my grandchildren. I think London is a lovely city to live in, and thank God, life is going on smoothly. 

How would you describe your life situations? You said you live with your wife, your son and grandchildren, I mean how would you describe life and the daily routine you have living with such a family?
We live in a two floor house, and that gives us privacy and independence as each floor has its own services, like bathrooms. Regarding the daily routine, each one of us is living his own life and doing his own things, however we still live a family life.

What does it mean for you to be with each other as a family with such circumstances? 
Actually, it takes me back to Egypt before I left, as when I left Egypt my wish was to have my family with me. I left alone, my son left before me to Turkey, but I was not sure where I was going. I took the plane without even knowing  where I was going. I left Egypt 7 years ago, at that time I was 61 or 62, … You are talking about 60 years of family life, and I was living in one building with all my sons, each one has his own apartment, so to leave that life was very difficult for me. For now we are not all together as a family as some of my sons are living in different countries each on his own, however, it’s still better than nothing, still it’s far away from the ideal, let’s say 20-25% of the ideal, but that’s better than nothing. Thank God.

You said being separated from your family is difficult, would you describe for us what you mean by difficult? 
First of all, it’s difficult to feel attached to a place and to be connected to it, a place where you and your family lived all your life, a place where you lived with your extended family.. With your uncles, grandparents, aunts and cousins, and also a place where you shared life with your neighbors, friends, workmates … especially, my work was all about connecting to people, as I was working as a doctor, and I was a party activist working with The Freedom and Justice  party in Egypt and that type of life made me live a life with continuous connection with people… it’s difficult as all of the sudden, I found myself taking a plane without knowing where I am going, that was very tough!! .. I needed to start again, and I was all hope to have anything that could give any feeling of hope and reassurance.

Does being with your wife and son along with his wife and your grandchildren at the same house with the changes in circumstances.. Does that take you back to your life during your previous 60 years?
Actually, although my two other sons are living away from me, still living with one of my sons at this place gives me a similar feeling of the warm feelings that the family provides you. In addition to that, social media.. it helps decrease the agony, the pain and the psychological suffering of the family separation.. It helps in part with my loss after this age … as you can contact different people by videos, Skype, Zoom or What’s up.

Tell me about your sons who live away from you ? 
Actually, I have three sons, thank God. I am living with my youngest son in London. The eldest son is living in Canada, he had to leave Egypt because of the same reasons and circumstances as mine. The middle son is coming here, to the UK, he’s an Asylum seeker, and still he’s in an unstable situation with a busy brain thinking about his sons. My eldest son is not living with his sons either. We are suffering somehow, however, having my son with me partially helps decrease the pain and gives me a hope of living again as a family together, like how we used to live in Egypt. 

When was the last time you had the chance to see your son who’s living in Canada? 
Last time I saw him was 3 or 4 years ago. I have left Egypt without seeing him, at that time he was working in Saudi Arabia. While I was in Turkey, he came for a short visit, however, all in all, it’s considered a long time since I have seen him.

When was the last time you talked to him ?
What makes things less painful is social media, like Facebook or Whatsapp. I call him regularly, usually I do voice calls with him every few days, we talk for few minutes, as there is about 7-8 hours of time difference between London and Canada and you can not be sure whether he’s working or maybe sleeping, so we talk, asking generally about life and how he’s doing, and we do not often talk for long.

You mentioned that you were deeply connected to people, at different levels and aspects of your life. You were surrounded by people at your work, as a party activist and even at home with your family. Now, since you left Egypt and all of that changed, how do you spend your time on a daily basis ? 
I lived a busy life back in Egypt, .. My day was really full,  I used to wake up early in the morning to go to work whether it’s the government work or the political work or my work at my Clinic with my patients or sometimes with my neighbours. Since I came to London, I started to be a regular guest on TV channels, Thank God for guiding me to that, and that takes a good part of my time. I am a regular guest of most of the international TV channels, I appear on these channels as a health care provider expert, as an expert in Corona and sometimes for Unions/ Associations related topics. I appear on different TV channels, like ” Russia Today ” or ” Alhura” or BW” from Berlin. I appear on channels from London,like  ” Alarabi” or  ” AL-Hiwar  “. From Istanbul, I appear on ” Wattan” , Mokammelen”. I also appear on some Arabic TV channels, like the Libyan, the ALgerian, the Jordanian, the Tunisain or the Syrian Channels. Thanks God all of that is taking good part of my life. Furthermore, Sometimes I write my thoughts on Social media, or I send some articles to Journals or Newspapers here in London, like ” Arab 21″ or ” Alarab aljadeed”. Researching for the data, collecting and organizing before presenting it, all of that takes my time too.

Do you do all these activities to pass the time or do you feel something when you do them?
Actually, these activities make me feel more than one thing. First, it’s a way to invest your time for good reasons. Secondly, through these activities, I am trying to send  messages to my people in Egypt clarifying the reality of the situations in Egypt after the military coup, the reality of the corrupt political system and how unjust they are. At the same time, I am giving advice related to my work experience as a pediatric consultant, I am giving health related advice and population related advice. Whenever I am giving advice to people, even if it’s health related, I am also sending messages to the corrupt political system on how to avoid mistakes and how to treat people well, especially during the pandemic. When Corona hit, I had to spread my knowledge and experience as the epidemics and infectious diseases are my areas of speciality and I wanted to help people by giving them some advice, I wanted to spread the advice whether it’s through Arabic channels, Egyptian channels or any channels around the world.

Have these activities succeeded to relieve the pain of you leaving Egypt and being away from your family and sons? 
These activities absolutely fill up my days and times. However, there are still two major dangerous things in my mind, which are very important. The first thing is my people in Egypt, how they live, and how they survive life.. my friends in the Egyptian prisons and their suffering, and how everyday one of them dies without me being able to do anything for them. What’s concerning me too, is the Corona virus and how it’s affecting the whole world, and how it’s affecting Egypt without any real precautions being taken and without a major attention from the authorities. I am trying to talk about all of that on TV, trying to explain to people how my friends and colleague those whom I used to work with at the medical association, at the party and those whom I used to share the initiatives with them, the initiatives of helping the community, helping the poor people and those in need, those initiatives which were organized by the Egyptian Medical Association.. These people are now in prisons and they are suffering and everyday one of them is dying. It keeps me up all night, and I am unable to sleep whenever I am thinking about them.. I can do nothing for them, all I can do is to spread awareness for my people in Egypt on how to keep healthy during this difficult time.

You mentioned that some of your friends died in prisons, those whom you have shared moments and activities with  and you said that makes you unable to sleep.. Have any of your friends recently died in the prisons and you found yourself unable to sleep and psychologically exhausted? 
My friend and I started to be involved in the trade union works from the 1980s, let’s say starting from 1984. Some of my friends are activist leaders, like Essam Al-Alryan, who just passed away about a month ago, may Allah bless his soul, he died in the prison due to medical negligence. During his court sessions, I was listening to him, he kept complaining about his medical state and how he needs medications, yet they have not provided him with any medications and he died. The last friend who died was today, he used to be an active member of The  Association of Teachers, he represented Damietta City and he was also an active member of our party, his name is Ali Al-bheri. He died due to medical negligence too. He had a stroke, a blood clot on his brain, and they delayed his transfer to the hospital for a purpose, so he arrived at the hospital late and died. For sure, when I get this news, it hurts and irritates me and makes me upset, yet I can not do anything for them.. it irritates me to see my friends suffering under oppressions like that. 

When you hear news like that, how do you try to cope with them? Only by writing and doing interviews or is there something else? 
Actually, when it comes to the interviews ..

Say when I hear the news of someone has died
When I hear the news of the death of any of my friends, I have two things to do. First, as Muslims we have the Absentee Prayer, which is a kind of prayer we do for those who died while living away from us, so I pray that Allah bless their souls and forgive them. Second, it’s my duty to  appear on TV channels to explain to people how good this man was, and how he had essential rules on helping the community and poor people in Egypt. I explained how they had been suffering for 7 years in prisons without any accusations or with false allegations, they had been  living under oppression for all these year. These things I do might decrease the pain, but still anyone in the world will feel the oppression and the authoritarianism when they get such news and witness such situations.

For 60 years you have been living in Egypt then you left for another place and finally you arrived in the UK as an asylum seeker. During your time in Britain, have you been feeling connected to the country and to the community? or do you feel that the community  sees you and  treats you as a refugee or as an asylum seeker only?
Actually, since I arrived at the airport asking to be a refugee here, I have been treated very well. I arrived with my wife, and my wife has mobility issues, and maybe that’s why they gave us a kind and special treatment. When we arrived, we requested to be refugees here, they started to search about us and our situations. At first, and while we were waiting for a response and decision, they put us in a place which might not be very good, however, with time and after the acceptance they moved us to another house where it was good and fits our needs. All in all, the treatment was very good, the health care is good and available and the transport is free for me. All of that makes you feel comfortable and reassured about the place you are at. In public, when I meet people, or I meet any health care providers or even with neighbours… I do not feel as a foreigner and they all treat me well and kindly whether it was in Birmingham, Ipswich or London. 

Did feeling safe and secure here make you feel connected to this country? like do you feel this is your country now?
Feeling safe and secure makes me feel comfortable, reassured and makes me feel connected to this country. We can live here, and stay here, but still the mind and heart are busy with the original country where I was born and grew up. It’s hard to ignore the 60 years where I had my people and friends with whom I was connecting on a daily basis. If you look at my Facebook or Twitter these days, you’ll find that I am still connected to my friends and people from Egypt, I am still in contact with them, I am still talking to them, asking about how life is going on with them. I really miss them and  still I seek advice from them and they ask me for advice too. I am living in a good and safe place, indeed. However, the feelings and emotions are still thousands of miles away with my friends and people, where I lived for 60 years.

You said that the home office at first put you in an unsuitable place to live, would you describe this place for us?
At first we had some money, and we were living on our own, we said to ourselves since we have money we are not going to ask for any support and we will just live on our own. However, the life expenses here are very expensive and we spent all our money. We asked for financial support from the home office, and they responded positively, they moved us to another place. We were living in Birmingham on our own at first, and we have actually chosen that city as it’s known to have a big Muslim community, and we wanted to feel connected by living in a familiar place as much as we can. The home office moved us to Ipswich… honestly, the house they provided us was unsuitable. We raised some complaints about different things, and we have also asked for some changes.. They were trying to help and make some changes but at the end it was obvious that this place is not for people who are as old as me and my wife. Things have changed when we contacted the disabilities, as they did many changes in the house. They added some equipment that helped my wife with her mobility, like, they added them around the bed, on the toilets, and she was able to use them while going up or down the stairs. The governmental agencies were responding well to us too. The refugee support committee was also providing us with all the support that we needed as well. They taught us English, they sent us doctors home as a part of the outreach medical program. A doctor named Tim Red made life easier for us, his care was at a top level, he made everything possible for us in terms of the medical care and he covered all my and my wife’s needs. We had many diseases, for me personally, I had eye problems, and they performed the cataract surgery for me, they have also done the retinal detachment surgery for me, and I also have Intraocular lenses surgery in both eyes done.. I had hearing weakness and they helped me by providing a hearing device … I had stomach issues, they did some images and provided me with some medications as I was found to have diaphragmatic hernia… and they also gave me some medications for the prostate enlargement I had. The same things applied to my wife, the level of health care was unbelievable and at the top level. You really feel secure health care wise, and this is a very crucial thing. The place we used to live at in Ipswich was – honestly- unsuitable.. However, the town itself was full of people around our age and it’s a nice quiet place and the hospital there was good too. After that they moved us to another place, it’s a beautiful place that really fits our needs. One extra thing to mention is the kind treatment we got from people at the council, they were very nice and although we are still out of Egypt, we were being treated well and each and every need of us is being fulfilled.

Why did you leave Egypt? 
Actually the topic of why I left Egypt. I never wished to leave Egypt and I never thought about it, even working out of Egypt was not a choice for me. My friends back on the days, used to go to work abroad, like to go to Gulf countries, but I never wanted that, as I was stable in Egypt. Okay, I worked on Saudi Arabia, but I worked there out of necessity and just for a year and went back to to Egypt when my things were sorted out. Even after retiring from government work, I got the chance to work in Egypt for a governmental job which was related to the Health Insurances. I worked there every day, I had my trade union connections and friends and I was an activist with a party. I also had a wide range of connections with my community and people. All of the sudden, I found myself chased by the police with many false and delusional   accusations, like being a terrorist. One day, they informed me the police is coming to your house, so I had to go to another place to stay for a while. They broke into my house and destroyed all of my belongings, and I was left with no place to stay or to sleep, so at that time I had to take the decision of leaving and I booked a plane and left Egypt. I felt that my life was in danger. 

Did you leave Britain? 
No, actually the decision was taken suddenly without any previous plans. I was thinking about countries that do not require a visa, and at that time I had two choices, either Turkey or Sudan. On the night of 25/9/2013 I got a call, I was out, they informed me that I have some accusations and they are coming after me. They claimed that I am a terrorist, while I am a party activist, a doctor, a trade union activist and the former undersecretary for a ministry. Under these situations, I took the first flight to Turkey, as it does not require any Visa. I arrived at the airport and at the airport, the passport stamp man told me that you have to ask for a temporary Visa for a month so you can manage yourself inside the country. I took that Visa from Ataturk Airport in Istanbul, and I started to think what to do next, nothing was arranged before, I just went with the only choice I got at that time. I spent the whole flight which was 4 hours without sleep, I was just thinking about what to do, I could not sleep or even eat or drink.. I didn’t even know where I was going.

While the flight was boarding, and you were leaving Egypt after 60 years of living there, what were you thinking about at that time? thinking about your family? your country? tell us more about these moments.
It was so strange! I booked the first flight heading to Turkey, and there were no seats other than the first class for the VIP. The plane was very small, it only took maybe around 120 passengers, and I was sitting at the first seat just behind the main flight door, I was watching the staircase of the plane, they were small stairs .. maybe just around 20 stairs … I was in a shocking state when the airplane staircase was closing and the door of the plane was closing too… I was thinking about what’s going on, where I am going to? I was going to the unknown, going to nowhere… it was very difficult.. it felt like my heart was going to burst out of my chest! It was a very strange feeling! Then I started to see Cairo becoming smaller and smaller.. finally it disappeared. .. I opened my eyes, I was not aware where I was.

What was your feeling leaving Turkey and coming to the UK to be an Asylum seeker? 
The feelings in Turkey were different. I was in danger, as there were many threats coming from Egypt for those who talk to the media about anything related to Egypt, they filed a lawsuit against me to withdraw my Egyptian nationality. At that time my passport was about to expire too and I was not sure what I should do. I felt threatened all the time, even General Sisi himself threatened those who were speaking to the media about any Egyptian affairs. I was talking to the media regularly at that time, so I found myself facing false accusations that I am attacking Egypt and with allegations to drop my nationality. The place became unsafe… Not because Turkey is unsafe, no..but because of the threats coming from Egypt. I had to think about solutions, Turkey did not give you the right to be a refugee as a country, however, you can be a UN refugee. Therefore, I was looking for a country which accepts refugees as a country and the UK was the choice. Let’s say that life circumstances guided me to the UK.

Tell me more about your experience in the UK? When did you arrive in the UK? 
I arrived to the UK on 8th of March / 2018

How would you describe your experience as a refugee? How did it affect you? Was it  a Positive or a Negative experience? 
I can not say it was a positive or a negative experience, because it was a mix of both. You can say it’s gray, not black not white.. meaning it’s not 100% positive however, not 100% negative too. I like to look at it as something I should adapt myself to. There’s no other choice for me, or as we Egyptians say, It could not be better than it was.. and at the end it’s God’s fate. God wanted me to be here so I need to adjust myself to live here. Still, there’s a degree of emotional, mental and psychological instability that’s very difficult to overcome. 

Talking about the positive part of the experience, what are the positive things that have happened to you during the last two and half years of you living here? 
The positive thing is that I feel safe, there are no threats of being killed like in Egypt or later on while I was in Turkey. Thank God, I no longer worry about my safety, that’s a very important feeling. I live in a closed place, I can eat and drink safely, and if I get sick, my health will be taken care of, thank God for that. These all are positive things, indeed.

You have not been feeling safe? 
I felt completely unsafe while I was in Egypt. However, while I was in Turkey, at first I felt safe, but later on I did not. In Turkey, I left my place on 16th of August/2013 and went back on 5th of September, I spent all that time at one of my friend’s place, I was not able to sleep. Any movements on the streets were suspicious for me, as I was thinking they were coming after me. That was not the case when I first arrived in Turkey, as I was sleeping well after a long time of bad sleep in Egypt.. but with time and the threats which were coming from Egypt I started to feel unsafe again just like in Egypt. Feeling unsafe, threatened, being unable to sleep.. all of that forced me to come to London,.. and thank God, here all these bad feelings disappear,…Here I feel safe and it’s very important.

Before all of that, let’s go back to 2013, what was your dream in Egypt? 
When we were living in Egypt, we were dreaming about ..

Let’s repeat the question again, and please start the sentence by: My dream in Egypt was ..
My dream in Egypt when I was there… After the Revolution of January ..We started to feel democracy, freedom, dignity and social justice. The election came, and we started to practice real democracy and actually choose what we want. I retired in February/2013 and then started to work with The Freedom and Justice party of Egypt, we had a hope, a hope that we can improve for the better. We started to see some improvement on different sectors,.. as  a part of my work at the party I was up-to-date on what improvements we were achieving..  Like in the agriculture sector, we started to produce wheat and we took actions to improve our healthcare system. We started to make some arrangements  for the elections of Municipal Councils. The dream was to see a democratic country where we live with freedom and dignity.

Okay, we want to have those last four words and put them in one sentence, I mean just one short sentence. 
My dream in Egypt was to see my country living in democracy, social justice, dignity and equality for each and every citizen living there, and to have a good healthcare system .. to have a society with good moralities and behaviors.. where everybody loves and respects the other, like any democratic developed country.. 

After all these years, what is your dream now? 
Still my dream is for Egypt to become a country where there’s democracy, social justice, freedom and healthy life for all citizens 

We are about to finish, but I would like to ask you.. how would you describe the strength points of your personality?
If anyone thinks about it with themselves, they will find that many of their strength points are coming from: believing in God and his fate, the conviction in God, feeling hopeful all the time and feeling that tomorrow is always better than today, the feeling that when you help and provide others things you can help and provide God will make it easier for you, the positivity that you keep having.. I have always been feeling this way, maybe this is my source of strength….   That’s why I always wanted to do good and to help people.

What messages do you have for the British community which recently have been treating refugees with arrogance and superiority or with feeling that refugees are burdens on the british society 
Actually, the feelings toward refugees in Britain, or the feelings towards anyone who’s not from Britain but yet lives in Britain takes me back to 1945 just after World War Two.. when many European countries were affected and damaged by wars, and at that time many refugees entered the European countries, Although these people are people from different nations, yet they played a crucial part in the improvement and advancement of these countries at different stages and levels. In addition to that, I have noticed during the Pandemic that many doctors are actually not British, yet they played a crucial role in making this country safe and helping the healthcare system to become better, although they started as refugees. I believe that all people here are working, and they try to return the favor by helping in the improvement of this country, I do not believe they are homeless for example and just asking for money. Therefore, the hate will just stop the efforts made to improve the society whether it’s by English, British or by people from different nationalities..

Thank you very much