About Refugees, By Refugees

Portrait of refugee Axiom surrounded by blank wall frames holding a frame with a question mark to hide their face


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“So that’s my hope – that we can see ourselves as just human beings or just beings, you know?” says Axiom (42). Recalling her arrival in Germany in 1999 as a young student, after her country was hit by an economic crisis, Axiom says, “I was full of dreams.” But a year later, after forgetting to renew her visa, that hope was replaced by fear. “It’s like your whole life depends on one person on the other side of the table,” she says, of her attempts to obtain documents from the immigration office.“That is a very awful feeling… to prove that you are good enough to be here.” But through her struggles she has found strength. “I can feel it as a gift… yeah growing up inside.” Today, working for a human rights organisation, Axiom has a message for Europe. “Let’s talk, these taboo themes, topics about migrations, let’s talk, let’s create, co-create – a new space where we can feel secure, how we are, you know?”

Trigger Warning:

full interview

Um, what kind of housing do you live in now?
Housing, eh I’m um, with roommates, two roommates, yes.

And can you describe the conditions of the place?
The conditions, yes, it’s uh nice and clean and organized.

Mm hmm. And do you live with people that you know already?
No, no they are new for me.

Mm hmm.

And how do you spend your time, in general?
In general? Well, with this situation, uh, I like to to look, I said to to see films or to analyze them and yes, to to research a lot of uh topics that I’m interested in or just chill.

Mm hmm.
You know.

Are you working at the moment?

Are you working at the moment?
I’m working. Yes, I’m working. Uh, should I say what I’m doing?

Um, if you want.
Uh yes, I can say it. Um, that is for, uh, human rights organization and, uh, we are, um. Um, how would you say that we’re uh doing videos for for the for the educational department? And yes, I support them and doing these videos or doing interviews for the public relations um department.


And was it easy to find job?
No, it’s not easy. That’s uh the moment it’s uh say, not so not so easy for me because I have these uh students that is still these uh these students, that is. And that’s why I think it is not so um easy, so at my age. Hahahaha, It sounds like a old woman.

Anyways, now you have it. And what are some of those things that bring you joy?
Um, to sing and to have a nice, deep conversation with a friend uh that connect us uh as uh as beings as, you know? Not only as human beings and then, yes, as beings, it’s to do music that is a very nice um way to connect ourselves uh and with other people and that’s why I like to do that, is I enjoy a lot of the music with friends, to jam.

And, um, how has life been since you arrived in Europe?
Whew. Since I arrived in Europe um, yeah like life, it’s downs and ups. Uh it’s not easy to be immigrant in Germany um I consider it at uh um that in my country, the Europe people are very welcome. Very, very welcome. Just like uh the king, you know. And uh it’s the opposite for us being here.

And what kind of difficulties have you seen?
Um. There is a lot of of fear still. And for me, it’s very surprising to know that um that Germany, how was this, in 2000 was this uh like a migrant country, you know, so uh it it it cou- it, uh sorry. It’s uh,”hab ich Deutsch auf dem (Kopf) (I think in German) um as well. For me, it’s very surprising to to know that uh this this country so in 2000 um as uh a a migrant country. So it would be considered in that way. But uh the feeling that I have uh is that it is still a lot of fear for these to be strange, to be around stranger so around um um international people because um, yeah, we look different. So and or our behavior is uh different, you know. So our background mm in, because of this fear, I think it is very difficult for the people to to to to come to us, to to ask, uh in a, in a very um friendly way. So, you know what I mean uh this this uh I hear I still hear where where you come from, so after 20 years. And and and people who who um wachsen (grown up), who, who, who grew up here and and and generations from migrant, you know, and with uh, yeah they they grew up here with this cultural background and still so because they, they see, I don’t know, um international people so um they will consider them from from the people who who are this stereotype. So a white man and a white woman, you know, so this um this kind of mentality that German is just white. So it’s it’s very um for me it’s very surprising that this stereotype is not, it’s still here. So and, uh, I met a lot of people who were born here and, uh, and speak so well in German and they look Asian or or African people, you know, and they they become this this this, uh, this question, where are you from? You know, and that’s very difficult so, to live in a country where you’re born and you speak the German very well and still, you you you’re a stranger. Crazy.

Yeah. And uh, what has been good about being here?
Oh, a lot of things. A lot of things. Yeah, as a as a woman. So, um, I can walk on the streets uh alone in the night. Uh, I love to to to drive my bike. I love it. In my country, I cannot do that in the city where I grew up. So, um. There is a lot of nice people here, too, with a very critical um mind and and it is very nice in my work, um for example, I met a lot of people who are very critical from, uh, from uh from their whiteness.

Mm hmm.
So, you know, and and to talk and to to have these dialogs between us, uh it made me have a lot of hope so.

Mm hmm. And, um, can you describe over the years how living here has made you feel?
Oh, uh. That is a very emotional question. Um. I take my time, ok?

Ok, sure. We can also skip it.
And so now I can I can talk and I maybe I will make a break, but. The feelings I had. I was very happy at the, um, at the beginning when I arrived, I was I was 20. And an. And I was full of dreams, you know. Yeah, but I was very curious to, so. And. I’m I’m very independent, so I call the work so very fast asking people and and making these typical migrant jobs, you know, with children or with all people or um household. How do you say that. Um.

Home work. So, you know? Um, yeah putzen, putzfield (cleaning/ cleaning jobs) It’s. Uh with the time I realized that these jobs were typical migrant jobs, I didn’t know it. So I just had the feeling but I didn’t know it. So, OK, that’s with my with with the with the comment on the sorry, with my friends or with my, you know, people who I know. So in this time I could realize that it is very um. Yeah. uh. It was really like a common. Uh. Common activities as immigrants, you know, so I uh wait, my words, so not so good at the moment and I’m going to another I’m sorry. Um.

It’s ok.
And the feeling. Wait uh pause. Pause.

So I just want to share then which emotions I had in this 20 years or so, and for one side I have the feeling, OK, that’s that’s my home and that’s where I grew up, as a adult and whatever that means. So, and I am sorry, OK. Um. Yes, um I I know this city. I know they every not every, but a lot of this city, I, I walk, I walk this city, you know, and in the night and the day. So alone with friends and so in my in my country, my city as a woman, I cannot be alone or you know, I have to be so with a lot of people. So in the night and that is what this country gave me so these uh Sicherheit (security)?

Security, yes. So to to move. Yes. This is this mobility. This free mobility. Yes. And and I can study here. I can work here. So, um, yes. And that’s that’s a very, very nice things that happened to me so and. What, um, what help me maybe so it’s that, um. Yeah, it help as a people, so people from from this country or for or people who are here in the same situation as me and to to find these people to to talk with these people, to to have our relationships. And, um, and to be part for from someone else and so on, and it gave me a home feeling, too, so 20 years and 20 years, you know, and I had I worked in another country, too, and and was nice to I see. Yeah, um. I cannot say that I have a lot of money that is not so I, my topic or my tea, my you know, my “wie heisst das” (how do you call it?)?

Aim, so but, um. Yes, it is very um for mobility in Germany. It’s nice super uh so comfortable so you can’t go everywhere and. Because of these pass, you know, and now I have this pass now I know I saw the difference between my pass from my country where I born and this pass German pass. So I had a lot of difference. So and it’s crazy. So it’s just a piece of paper. So.

I know.
Oh, my God. So and here I had I had this Fiktionsbescheinigung (Fictive Certificate- given to immigrants when they do not have their residence yet). So, I had the feeling in the airport once and wurde ich abgeschoben (I was deported) and they wanted to how do to send me home.

Yes. Um

To send you home?
Yes, I was it was a very hard situation for me. I came from my country. So after one year. So I study here and then I, I went there to go to to make a few work. And then I came again and I forgot to totally that if you stay more than six months in another country, your visum (visa), your visum is ungueltig (invalid) and it’s not valid, you know, and I have forgotten I. And I was in the airport and it was a very crazy man, a policeman. Sorry, I have to. And this policeman was so unfriendly. He wants he wanted and he told me that, uh, that he want me to send home um want to send me home, and then my heart was so, and now I’m feeling that again that as uh, oi. I was very afraid in this in this moment, and after that, I had a lot of Fiktionsbescheinigung and I became a lot of Fiktionsbescheinigung (Fictive Certificate) from from Auslaenderbehoerde (Immigration Office). So it was very difficult in these with with these documents issues. You know, it’s just it was I was so tired and I am when I was with these Fiktionsbescheinigung (Fictive Certificate) and even then I was still a student. I’m still a student. It was my to be a student. It was for me. Life strategy, a living strategy, survival, survival strategy. You know, because in that in that time I could with this status more works, to have more works, you know to and it was. Yeah, and it’s now it’s another another thing. But um yes. The feeling, the feeling that you have to prove that you do deserve to be here. You know, that is a very awful feeling. You have to prove that you are good enough to be here. That’s crazy. So and and that’s make me make me very angry, so angry and disappointed and and more disappointed because of the treatment that we I think we because we are a lot of people who were living that, so I guess in this way that that in the these institutions where immigrants have to go to and to renew their documents and in my, my personally personal histories, it was too and was so too and it is like you your your whole life depends on one person on the other side of the table. You know, if this person have bad mood so your life can change in one minute. And that is so awful to feel, you know? So uh. To have the feeling that if that happened in any time. All that you have um worked all that you that you did to be here and to to work with yourself and to to to to do just the things that you love to do, so to have this space and this time and and this security to to to to do it just to do what you love to do, you know, um yeah, it’s it’s an. That is a very strong feeling. Uh which I am, at least I know I have this German German pass but I I’m still have this feeling I’m I’m a. From from the eyes, from this society, I’m I’m a outlander. I’m just a, a Immigrant, you know, uh, I don’t belong here, so and with these attitudes, with this treatment, uh, uh, between people, uh, then you you don’t feel welcome. So and this feeling, I mean, it’s there as the fear is not there, you know, because I know that I have this this document, I can stay here, but I know this this feeling in my body is there, so it’s not going. And that’s why I can. I can. I can feel people so and I can and I know that there is so many situations: duldung (Tolerance Paper- Document given to immigrants until their deportation), fiktionsbescheinigung (Fictive Certificate), abschiebung (Deportation paper) you know, is a. No, no, no, no, it’s it’s not OK. Germany is very rich, you know, and immigrants have a do a lot in this country, so and I think it is time that that did that in the in the media um that changed. So.

So, in the media, in the reality and in all these fields, so.

And, um. How does being away from the rest of your family makes you feel?
And again?

How does being away from your family? I don’t know. Um hmm. How does it make you feel?
Oh, wow. Look, normally in my country, this family is the most important, and I think this is the most important, yes? But I’m not attached to my family. I never was. So I love my family, but I, I think different, so in in very and a lot of ways. So um. Uh. I grew up in a Catholic. An Catholic Glauben (belief) system uh.

Belief system?
Belief system. Thank you. And uh I ask me as a child, so that’s not the only way. So what am I I don’t know. You know, then I discovered yoga when I was 16 and and Taichi and so on, you know, and then I began to to become articles about Taoism or Buddhism, you know, and and then I realized, OK, what about my my ancestors? So, um. And then I wanted always to to go to a to a sweat lodge. It is a ritual. And very, very old from our ancestors. And that was for me. So, OK, I want to know this way too, so it’s part of me, so. Um, and um, I want to to learn the language from from the, um. From them, I don’t like to take this word indigenous, I don’t like this word. Um. How can I say um. Well, I’m one uh.

The residents?
The residents uh from this territory, so I know, um. My family came um. I’m the only woman and I’m the only woman from from four children, so I have three brothers and and I was I was the first who went out to or from some from the bubble. Yes in a certain way, yes, my name and I always wanted to to know I know other cultures and to be in lot of places. I was very curious and I see me and I think I would die so and but it was this economic crisis. So in my family that um, that was the push factor to to come here and I just saw my family and there was inflation, inflation and flat inflation? In the country and and then the the whole country. Oh. How suddenly was the dollar in the in the in the country, you know, so it was our official and it was very hard for my my my my father because he yeah, he gefeuert (fired), and.


Got fired?
He lost. He lost. Say

He got fired?
He got he got fired. And and then it was the dollar in the country and he lost the money. So, you know, and my my mother was in that time um a teacher. So from the consulate uh primary school? And it was not enough you know? I was not uh yeah financial uh our financial situation was very, um. Yeah. Not so, and that’s why it was a strong reason why I’m here. And in another hand, I was very independent. So I don’t how how I told you my family was my family and they were there and but it’s it was not this family that I I went to my parents when I have a problem, you know? So it was the communication was not so strong and the connection was not was not so strong as today. So I’ve been working so with this topic to it’s important for me to have a good relation with my parents and with my family, with my brothers and so, um, um, but without pushing, you know? So and yeah, they they in some ways they are very proud that I’m here so that I was very courage. I had the courage to, with 20 to come here and, and, and it’s nice to to be seen because in my family I had this, this feeling to so that because of this, um, point of views that I had. So to be curious about another cultures, about another’s life ways, um, I was like a stranger in my own family, you know, and, uh, and and that’s why the feeling that I have in my family. It is. Yeah, it is love, of course, but it’s not is this love that I have to be there all the time. So I’m not this kind of person, but I love people, you know?


And, um, how have you been able to overcome/survive your difficulties over these years in Europe?
How how how can how have I survive?

Like um, because all these difficulties and all of it, um, officials with Behoerde (authority) and so on, like it’s also hard to find a job and it’s also hard to be and exist, um, with this like, difficult times. And, um, how did you survive, like, now that you are here.

Did you have some kind of like, uh, coping mechanism or a strategy that you somehow developed?
Yes. Yes. This is a nice question. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. You learn to to to, um, beobachten (observe) to to observe. You learn to observe very good to. I think I, um, my sensibility is higher. I think, uh, with this immigration process that I had, I had, have, we have, yes uh, sorry. Can you repeat?

Over the years with the difficulties, how you have been surviving it, do you have like a coping mechanism, a strategy that you’ve developed. Like what’s your skills and strengths, that you are fighting against it and surviving it, you know? Or maybe not fighting but like it also can be a kind of strategy to cope with it, to deal with it, with the difficulties that you face.
OK, um first, it’s a lot of questions in one one. Uh, I will I will ask something and then I will ask you to repeat again, OK?

In that time I learned to to observe people and to observe their uh body language, and it takes a lot, so I and um in this culture where I’m where I am and there is codes of behavior codes that I, I can recognize. So and it’s my interpretation, of course it’s not, uh it’s not true. So but I worked with um old people, so five years and consequently I got, you know, five years in my life when I was it was my first my first job here. And I have had to take care of of old people here. So and then I realized that when I talk, you know, like a very clear and with another tone like this, when you talk like this, then the people hear you!

Mm hmm.
So you have to talk clear. And another way. There is not another way, you know. And then I had the feeling I learned this to to speak this this language, German language to, to verteidigen (Defend) you know, to to defend myself. It’s not about I will I it’s fun, it’s fun to.

To speak, to speak German, to learn German, I had to learn to speak this language in order to defend myself. It’s crazy or it is. It is not. So it’s not a nice feeling. And so and now at this stage, this is another feeling, of course, but in that days, where I was where I was, I don’t know, 21 until 26. So it was a hard time for me with the with the language and to deal with old people you don’t know, people from the Krieg (War) or from the war and believe that not the it’s, but I had, of course, a lot of nice old people and I knew a lot of nice old people, too. So a lot of good mood and very friendly, too. So it’s it’s not. It’s not black and white, so.

So you developed also some kind of strategy to survive the difficulties?
In that way, I learned to speak in that way. So and in the university, it was the same. The university um uh, I was very shy and I’m I’m not in these days. I was very, very shy. Now, it’s not so the case, a little bit but in that time in the university, I found that, uh, very difficult too because of the language, but more than that, it was because of the no support from the professors or from from the students. I was alone. So and I had always my Audiogeraet (audio recording equipment). And I recorded the class and then I had to go to work and the thing is that I had to work a lot. So I don’t have that, I didn’t have the time to make social network, so, with the students and that’s what’s more difficult for me, I think. Yes, and what the professor was where I studied anthropology, social, so and and I felt that in this institute I would’ve found a lot of, um, Verstaendnis (understanding). Comprehension.

Yeah. A lot of. All of. And dialog between what it’s called nowadays, this this global, north and south dialogue, you know? I thought I could found that in this institute when I began to study, but it was not the case. So the professors were not supporting so at all. And in between the students, I realized that it was a very intellectual fight. And imagine myself in a class with my accent, you know, because you have to hear if you can German, you have to. You have to, but you have to talk without accent, you know? Fuck you, oh sorry!

It’s ok.
“No, no” I said and um, and that’s why it was very difficult for me in that university too, so. Um, yes.

And, um, how has covid-19, Corona, affected you in your daily life and your well-being, psychologically?
Uh, can we do a pause?

Interviewer [00:43:30] Yes, yes of course.
This is hard. Which kind of situation I had in this covid uh crisis, so. I think just the human contact, you know? this and to be in a seminar or at work and to to meet people and to drink a coffee and make together these. Yeah, these posts, I mean. Yes, that’s what I missed that, yeah, um, but another in another side, it is good for me because I have more work because all I uh all is digital at the moment. And I, I can do videos and, um, support these organizations and this human rights organization with this video. So that’s why it’s nice for me. It’s not a lot of money, but it’s OK. I can pay my rent.

OK, and now comes the questions about past. You already answered some of them before, so I will skip some of them.

And how was your journey to Europe?
How was my journey to Europe? My journey is this migration.

Mmm hmm, yeah, when did you arrive here? How was it the first time?
It was in winter, February 1999. When I arrived in Germany and it was uh not so easy, because I didn’t I had a place to stay for two weeks with a friend and then I didn’t have a place, so and I had to study at that moment, it was the, how you say? Studienkolleg (fellow students)?

Mmm hmm.
Now its Zentralkolleg (places for students to stay) only uh that time I had to to study one year more to to in order to go to the university. So this Deutsches Abitur (school diploma), German Abitur. And yes, so I didn’t have home a home. I do, but I have to I had to go to school. So it was very difficult situation for me. So and. Yes.

And how you were feeling about it, like having no place?
It’s awful. It’s awful it’s awful to to to have yeah, I had to go to to school without sleeping well. And I had I didn’t have the money to pay room, student room and I had to I had to wait for a room too so. The plan was in the in the first months, I have to go to the school and then I want to I wanted to have a job, so and it was a very hard situation, not the first time my my German teacher uh he was a very kind person and very direct and but without with a lot of humor, and it was the only the only topic I liked in this student college to be honest, it was literature. And and he taught me so how to do that. The train is maybe it’s gone for you. So what do you want to do? Want to study or not? Ach du scheisse. (Fucking Hell) So I had to to be more dedicated in this time to study and not so much so to, what’s difficult to be concentrated in my study. Yes.

And do you think about your, um, experiences before Europe?
In which come in which field?

Like, do you think about your life before Europe?
Ah, my life?

Now. Yes, sometimes.

And how does it make you feel?
Sometimes I ask me what I’m doing here. So I you know, you have a family over there, you have a room over there, you have a meal over there, you have love over there, you know? And here you are totally alone, without friends, without family, without a hug and uh, yes, sometimes I asking myself, what is wrong with me? But, you know, but the economic and political situation in my country is totally unacceptable. So. And that’s that’s that stopped me and as a woman in my country with all these patriarchal system and all these machismo, you know, it’s like, no, I don’t I don’t want to I want to to to go free on the street without it becoming these on, you know, and uh.

Ugh, this, this kind of unfriendly and sexual um, it will wie heisst das (how you say it?).

Like catcalls and such.
Yes. OK, catcalls. Yes. You know? This, yes. That’s why I think I’m here.

Is there something in particular, like something that you think about often?
From my country, the meal, the humor, laughing, the sun, the sea, the people, the humor, to laugh, I love to laugh over there. Here I I don’t love, not so much. I’m another person, so I’m very happy over there. I have my downs, but I love more. Yes.

And um, does the situation you faced affect you today? Like um, all your passport you have been through here, there.
Mmm. I don’t understand the question.

Like, um, do you think you have grown um, up out of these experiences?

Have you changed? And in what way it has affected you?
In all these years, you mean all this experience? Wow, wow. Yes, of course I have changed. In what way? I I think, um. So I learned every day, you know, with a lot of people, all the people who are there, you know, and maybe I change the the way to to see myself. Um, I was very feeling I was feeling a lot of like a small, small person and shy and to do with fear, to talk because of this language and because of the, not because of the language, because of the Erwartungen (Expectations).

And because of the expectations of another people. Uh, who wants me to speak to a German without accent and uh, yes, and so, yes, I am I’m I’m more I’m feeling more security? wie sagt das (how is it said?)

Secure I feel more secure about myself um, uh, I can move or I can speak, I can, I can say no, but that’s not um, that’s a yes, yes, is it influences to be here to say no, because in my country and most of woman eh, most of people can’t say, no, I don’t want that. I don’t like that because that, you know, is this direct dialog and very honest and so I like that from I learned that here so a lot to talk without, without uh, oyh, without willing and sorry, you know what I mean, No, without pretending to being another person, pretending to be kind when I have just bad mood.

And also like, thinking too much what um, would this bring to another person also? Like saying, no, they’re just being direct, you know?
Yes, yes. Yeah.

And, um, before you left your country?

What was your dreams?
I wanted to travel the whole world, you know, 20 years and you have a, you know a backpack? And I wanted just to yeah, to know the world and with that feeling that I came so, I don’t want to stay in Germany to be honest, it was just for me at that time and just ok, I stay here and then I go to England. I want to to study in English because at that time my English was was more better than my my German and. Yes, so and I like English more than German at that time, so now it’s it’s OK. Well I think I know, yeah.

And, um, the difficulties in your country um, how you were able to survive them?
The difficulties in my country, how could I survive them? Good question. I went out. You know, so it was impossible to me to work and to study and at the same time and yes, I wanted to travel, but I wanted to study sometime. So when I when I had this feeling that I’m prepared to do that and to have this privilege and to choose that so, yeah, I had to work, I had to earn money and but I had this opportunity, you know, and it’s not so, it’s not so simple. And to become this, you know? And this is a privilege so in this society. Yeah, and not so not that I think, oh, wow, cool for me, you know? But I have to say that this was a big opportunity to to go away and and to see that I could I can earn money alone and then to live alone and and be independent, so.

Before leaving your home country, what would you describe as your strengths?
What is strengths?

Like your, um, power points, like what was your motivations and um that, you, uh, those things were your strong parts, like.
Yeah, OK, my strong parts before I went out from my country, um. I had a very positivity, as uh say, a positivismus, um, I had a very positive attitude and uh, and I was very, very active so and yes, very uh, more offen (open), open, I think, and now I am I’m more selective, vor allen (for all, above all)? Wie sagt man (How to say?)?

For all?
For all? Um yes, for all with the which person I want to with with with with person I want to share. So I’m more selective so at that time um, I was just off in the open, so yes.

And the positivity, do you still have it?
In some kind, yes, yes, I so, I can smile and laugh um, yes, this is very um, important to me, but now I can my I don’t like positivity and negativity this, as this, you know? But, you know, these emotions that that there is a lot of emotion, so, uh, and yeah, which we call them negative, negative emotions, so like sadness or loneliness and, um. Yes, so or or in both, how you say that, uh angry and, you know? There is a lot of of emotions uh that I have, and I had so, but it’s about the injustice in the world and the injustice, uh the racism and discriminations is in all the world, in my country, in your country, in this country, so, you know? So, um, all that is strange so for or for others or for one group of persons who who have the power. So we are strange. We are not vitable, so this is, yes. I have that this feeling I um, it’s like my motto, so to to change that too.

And, um, what would you describe as a positive come out from your experiences?
A positive come out?

Yeah, what came out as a positive thing? So it’s like something good that um, came out of my difficult experience?
Yeah. That’s what came out, in the past.

From your difficult experience that you can say it came out as a positive thing, now that I have it, now that I am.
Ok, um.

For example, like some say I am more stronger now, let’s say from this difficult experiences, um, I don’t know, I am more independent, for example, like which can be considered as positive come out.
I think I’m I’m more um, empathisch (empathetic). I think I, um, in these years with this migration and uh, yeah, to be a migrant, to be, uh, friends from other people, international people, you know, it’s, uh, it’s it’s a gift. It’s a it’s a blessing, so but not this religious terminology so like, you know, it’s a gift uh, from from life, but, uh, to be here with you and to to share this moment, it is yeah, to recognize that and, yes, it’s and that is what I think I um, I can feel it as a gift, as a, grew up or uh, as a. Yeah, growing inside, so, yes.

And um, what are your hopes and dreams for the future now?
Hopes and dreams. I hope that we people can we really, really, really uh, connect with ourselves in order to connect uh, with each other. So that’s my hope that we can see ourselves as just human beings or just beings, you know? That that yes, you you you you came with uh, baggage with all your cultures backgrounds, yes, but we are living in the same planet, so. This kind of behavior that you make me feel, you know, smaller, or or or I have to uh to, I don’t have to to have this feeling that I’m more because I’m I’m more time here and as immigrant and, you know, gegenueber andere migranten (towards other immigrants). And so I you know, to I hope that we can change these feelings as a human beings that we are really, so, yes, we are diverse. We are unterschiedlich (different). We’re different. But but we have the same right to to to do what whatever we want to to do. And uh, yeah.

Actually, this was the next question of mine I wanted to ask you, is there anything you would like to say to, let’s say, here in Europe, to those European people to understand better, the life of people with immigration background, so that you already somehow answered this question.
I would say let’s talk. Let’s talk, let’s uh, these taboo themes, topics uh, about migrations, uh, let’s talk, let’s create, co-create uh, a new space where we can feel secure, how we are, you know? And to share our experiences, our emotions without uh, without becoming these feelings that I have to fold, or I make that mistake, no, the, we will live in this structure, you know? The world’s structure. There is an entity. There is a pyramid, you know, and if we if we could create a space where we can speak and secure and in peace and freedom and to talk about our emotions and how we can, we feel, uh, being a migrant and how are our observations about another culture that that these observations this this Austausch (exchange), this.

Mmm hmm, Exchange.
This exchange and make it real, you know? Let’s talk let’s take a coffee and and peace, so without feeling that that you want to, without fear, you know? Wie sagt man das auf Deutsch; ohne Vorwuerfe, ohne Schuldgefuehle, ohne sich zu fuehlen dass man ein Opfer ist (How is it said in German; without accusations, without feeling guilty, without feeling oneself that one is a victim?) You know, and I think that is why my my work here as a migrant, I don’t want to feel like a victim, so. Yes, there is injustice. Yes, yes. And there is a structure, there is a stereotype, that there is prejudice, uh, um, for for immigrants or for all or people who are different as white, but this is a structure. This is not, not German. That’s all the, all the world. So. Hmm, that’s my dream. So.

Ok, yep.
Thank you.

Many 1000 Dreams interviews were not conducted in English. Their translation has not always been performed by professional translators. Despite great efforts to ensure accuracy, there may be errors.