Big Black

full interview

What kind of housing do you live? Where do you live, what kind of housing? 
Yes, I live now in an apartment in Cáritas, and one person and I, of course, each one in his room.

Can you describe the conditions, is it ok the place? 
Yes, let’s see, it’s cool there.  I’m fine here with the Moroccan boy, I feel good there.

Even if it’s a Moroccan person… So how do you spend your time there? Do you work or do you do any other activity? 
Yes, my free time, no, I don’t, I don’t work right now because I can’t have papers, you know? My free time, I go play soccer.

Is it what, is it what you do to give you joy? What do you do to give you joy, is it football or what you do to give you joy? 
Yes, I played soccer.

Yes, to feel good… To, to feel good, I play soccer and be with my friends.

Are you playing in any team? 
Yes, I am playing now for Catalán and the team is in Badalona.

But are they paying him? Is it ok with the team? 
No, they don’t pay.

Ok. 
[But… Do you like it? Are you happy?]
Yes, I’m happy to be there, you know? Because they’re good people, you know? I’m well and everything, they don’t pay money. Just play to have fun and everything, you know? I, I like to play another team, you know? First Catalan or second Espanyol, you know? Better, you know? To sign a big contract or Barcelona, whatever, you know?

How’s life been since you arrived in Europe? 
Yes, I, like when I’m in Africa, in my country, in Senegal, I think differently about Europe. I think that when I comes to Europe, you know? I’m rich, you know? And working and all the means when you get here, very difficult. Which is why I being there in Senegal, I’m happier than me here because when I’m in Senegal, being with my family, working, here I can’t work because when you work you have to have a resident of… Like papers to be able to work.

No problem. Uhm, what has been good about you being here? 
Yeah, to be here for two years, don’t do good for my family or anything because I don’t work, if I don’t work I can’t help my family. When I’m in Senegal, I’m working for my family, you know? Not here, because here you have to have papers to be able to work. I don’t have any papers yet. Two years and a half being here, I don’t feel well. 

Can he describe how living here in Spain has made him feel? 
Bad, really.  Yes. Since I am in Spain for two year and a half, I have felt bad because I’m not working, my family is not here. 

Does he talk to his family? 
Again?

[No. Like, you felt bad, but what does bad mean?]
Yes. How bad it has felt to me how I am here? I’m fine. Me, when I’m fine, no more. You have to have papers and work. But I saw my family and a vacation one ago, two months, three months ago. But it’s in my family. Then I come back here to continue working until I can be in my country in peace. Yes, the word “bad”, because here in Spain there is a lot of racism, not all, but there is racism, you know? If you’re black like us, your life here is very difficult because there are people who don’t want to be around us. If you want to be alone here, if you’re black you can’t because people don’t want to live with us. I don’t know what’s going on because Spain, a little, you know, racism. 

[Ok. He was… Excuse me, I’ll ask him about the family. He was asking me if you’re in touch with your, with your family since you’re here.]
Yes, since I’m here, I talk to my family. Not every day. I talk to my family. I talk to, to my family, more my father… my mother that I talk to, my mother…

How do you face discrimination during the situation —being away from his family and facing some kind of discrimination? 
[How, how do you feel when you’re far away from your family and you’re in a country where —what you said, right?— that there is a lot of racism, there is a lot of discrimination. Like, how do you feel?]
Yes, I feel alone because this is not my country. Another different country, another culture of the people, you know? If one is not with his family, there is no support you know? Your life is a bit lost, you know? Sometimes you don’t have anything to eat. Sometimes you have something to eat, you know? I am holding on until I can have paper and return to my country.

[He feels alone and he’s waiting to get the papers and then he can go back to the country, like work a little bit and then go back and work and go back.]

How did he endure it? Like, now he feels alone, how is he handling it? 
Yes, I say that I feel alone here in Spain because it is not with my family. Not with my friends. So, you know, and a lot of friends I have here in Barcelona. I am always with them. There are a lot of things that are missing, you know, to enjoy family, someone talking to you, you know? And asking how you were, and all that. I don’t have that.

[And what do you do when you feel alone?]
I talk to my friends.

I want to know about his past if he’s ok with it? 
Yes, how, there are a lot of things in my past.

 I want to really know why he left his country, right? Why did he leave his country? Like describe what happened. 

Yes, as you say, when you’re in the country, in the country it’s a country, you know, that you don’t, that if you don’t have money, you can’t live there because it’s very difficult. But look, I’m here, I have to go to Spain to improve my life. Yes, I get here in Spain.

[And why, I mean, okay. In your country, like, if there’s no money, you can’t live well, right? But why, why do you decide to leave? Why to Spain? At what point? What happened? I mean, what is like the tipping point?]
Yes, I have seen my friend Sebas, he tells me are you coming with me? I tell him, yes, I go with my friends.

[And how, how, how do your friends get here?]
By boat, by boat. It goes from Senegal to Spain, in Tenerife, Canary Islands.

As a young boy living in his country, how does it make him feel at that time, as a young person living in his country? 
Yeah, yeah, I feel…  When my friend tells me there is a ship leaving and going to Spain, I say yes. I’m leaving because you don’t do anything here. Here I think of different, because the ship is very dangerous, you know? One is at sea, at sea for nine days, you know? And each one eating, uh, every day, we eat a lot of times, you know? A little difficult. Then we are almost nine days until it arrives in Tenerife. 

[When you’re leaving, how do you feel?]
How do you say it?

[How do you feel? Are you happy? Are you sad? Are you scared?]
Yes, I’m scared, because, as you say, I’m scared because the boat is very dangerous. The road from Senegal to Spain is a very long road. Almost, a lot of kilometers, you know? It’s just that it’s normal, I’m scared. When I arrive in Spain, I am happy because… 

[And aside from the fact that the sea is dangerous, you leaving your country and leaving your family, how does that make you feel?]
I feel, um, I miss my family a lot when at sea, I mean my mother a lot. Because when I take the boat, my mother doesn’t know it, my mother is…

[Your mother didn’t know?]
Didn’t know, didn’t know.
[Ok. Hey, he was feeling like fear because of the boat and then he was feeling like that he misses like the family once he was on the boat, because the mother didn’t know that he was on the boat. He didn’t tell anyone. ]

How was the journey to Europe? I want to know his journey to Europe, if he can explain to me how he moved from the country to the water and how the journey was. 
No, I was in Senegal. Yes? Because I was born in Gambia, because my mother is from Gambia, when I was two I went to Senegal with my father until I came here to Spain. I lived…

[So, you grew up in Senegal.]
Yes, I lived in Senegal for a long time, I lived in Senegal longer than in Gambia. I was there.

[Aaa, ok. So, since you are in Senegal what, so, your friend tells you “there is a boat”, what do you do? Ok, you say okay I’ll do it, what do you do, what’s the process?] 
For, for, for, for living in Spain. We boarded the boat without pay, with nothing. Because there are people who pay, I, we don’t pay because we’re small and we go underneath, nobody sees us. When it’s farther away, we come out, you can’t go back like people.

[He was telling me that he, the friend and he went to the boat and they hid under the boat because they were very small, and they didn’t pay and then when they see, they realized they were there, they were in the middle of the sea so they didn’t pay and they stayed in the boat, and it was like seven days till Tenerife.]

Is it any experience that was particularly difficult that he could tell us about, any experience, I know he was on the boat, is it any particular experience apart from that? That was difficult? 
[Is there any experience, I mean, in this whole process what is the experience that has been most difficult for you? Like, the hardest?]
What …

[At what point has it been most difficult?]
Yes, I when being at sea.

[At sea?]
Yes.

[Why?]
Because the sea…

[But, sorry. Can you say “the most difficult moment”?]
Yes. The most difficult time of my trip to come to Spain when being at sea. Because the sea is very dangerous. 

[How did you feel at sea?]
I feel I’m scared, because it’s very dangerous.

[And what were you thinking?]
Huh? I thought that everyone, everyone, uhm, is going to die, die right now because the sea is very dangerous, you know?

[And when you arrive in Tenerife, what do you feel?]
Yes, when I arrive in Tenerife, I’m sick, you know? I can’t do anything. I, you know that I’m in Spain now. I’m a little… I am happy because I am in Spain.

[But you were sick.]
Yes, I was…

[How? Had you become dehydrated? Or …?]
Yes, I treated well there, because when you arrived we were children, and they treat well and I goes to the hospital, I’m cool and everything, everything goes away.

[You arrive in Tenerife and they take you to the hospital and then they take you to the children’s center.]
To the children’s center.

[Can you tell me in one sentence?]
Yes. When I arrive in Tenerife to a, they take me to a hospital and then they took me to a children’s center. 

No, no, no, here. 
[Do you understand what he says?]

Yes, yeah, I understand. It’s… I’m interpreting. Do you think about these events often, does he think about the event of him traveling, does it disturb him? 
[Do you sometimes think about the time when you were traveling? Do you at times remember that moment, when you’re here?]
Yes. I, I, I think about a lot when I’m at the bar. Because you can’t forget that moment. Because this is a really hard time, you know? Huh? Everyone is there, all their clothes are wet, and very cold. I mean, it’s a difficult thing, you can’t forget that moment.

[Were you 16 years old when you were…?]
Yes, when I am on the boat.

[Can you say the phrase.]
Yes, when I’m on boat because we’re young, you know, under sixteen. It’s normal to worry because it’s my first day taking a boat to enter the sea. Because at sea, it’s very difficult, very, very dangerous to get to Spain.

[And when you think about this moment, when you’re already in Spain and you think about that moment, eh, what do you do? Like, is there anything that helps you, like feel better or… ?]
Yes, really, when I arrived I talk to my mother and forget all that. I say my mother I am now Spain. My mother doesn’t believe, you know? She says, where now, Spain now? My mother …

[And what did she say to you?]
She said, that can’t be, because my mother, when I board, my mother doesn’t know, take the boat with my friends and come here.

Does the situation you faced affects you today? How do you feel when you think about it? 
[Do you think that all this way, all these experiences have affected you to be who you are right now?] 
Yes.

[Can you explain to me how?]
Yes… How do you say that? Yes, I, I feel, you know how you are. Explaining is a little difficult.

[But can you try?]
Like the… I mean…

[I mean, how do you think that everything you’ve been through has affected you to be who you are now? Maybe now you’re stronger or you’re more I don’t know how, if you can give me examples of how it has affected you, how you take things or how you understand things?]
How, I don’t know, everything I lived through, the time I lived in Spain, motivated me because here in Spain there are people, racism, not all of them, when I live with racism I get a lot of strength to be able to move forward, you know? But there are people like that, racism only for one, makes me feel I don’t know. 

[Did you understand?]

Uhm. Could you have imagined that you would have been able to endure that situation? 
[Before coming here, would you have imagined that you would be able to do everything you do, everything, all the way you’ve come to get here now?] 
Really, I didn’t, I didn’t think. When I am in Senegal, I think that I will never leave Senegal. One day a friend comes and tells a ship to get out of here.

[I mean, before your friend comes, you never think about leaving …]
Never think about leaving in Senegal. Because there, I’m fine there.

[And, uh, and your friend tells you that and you think that’s a good idea?] 
A good idea, yes.

[But have you never thought about it before?]
Yes, never think before, then when he say I thought I would come back, but think something else too, when you arrive in Spain you can work to help my, my family, all of this, nothing.

[If that day your friend had explained to you what really happens in Spain, would you have come?] 
No, I something, I never knew how Spain is, I knew how a… a ship that leaves Spain, I knows this.

[Okay.]
I know how there are people who are here in Spain, how people live, all this doesn’t know, because I’m not in Spain, I’m in Senegal.

[Now would you do it again?]
Yes, because I’m here, you can’t go back with nothing. I’m here hanging on until I have them all, I don’t go back right now, you know, with nothing.

[If you could turn back time, would you do it?]
Yes. Now go back, no.

[Wouldn’t you?]
No, nothing.

[Would you have stayed in Senegal?] 
Yes. But, in Senegal, nobody, nobody wants to stay in Senegal, because in Senegal it’s getting harder every day until the most difficult moment because there, over time, there are people who die in a lot of things, you know? 

[There are a lot of political conflicts now. So it’s very, it’s very hard to live there.] 
Yes, very difficult to live there.

[And with the demonstrations and all this, a lot of people are dying.]
There are people, yes, a lot of people die. 

Before the events that led you to flee home, what was your dream, before you left Senegal? 
[Before leaving Senegal, what was your dream? Before you thought about coming, I mean, before your friend talked to you, what was your dream? What did you want to be?]
Soccer player.

[Soccer player? Can you say “before leaving Senegal my dream was to be a soccer player”?]
Yes, before leaving Senegal, my dream to be a soccer player. 

[And anything else?]
Yes, and to work, to help my family.

[And also, what was his dream for the future? Right now. And now, what is your dream?] 
Yes.

[“Now my dream.”]
Yes, right now my dream is to be a soccer player. 

[Also? And anything else?]
And have papers and work, be able to return to my family. 

[What motivates you right now to pursue this dream? What gives you strength?] 
My mother. Yes, my mother gives me strength. 

[How?]
How we talk.

[So her words, what she …] 
Her words, yes.

[Can you tell me the phrase? In one go …] 
How my mother motivates me when she talk to me, her word. 

Before leaving your own country, what would you describe your strengths? 
[Before leaving Senegal, if I had asked you what you think were your strengths, what were the good things about you, what were your strengths, what were they?]
Yes, strengths, respect.

[Before you left Senegal, eh? You are a very respectful person.] 
Yes.

[Anything else?]
And hard-working.

[And hard-working?]
Yes.

So what you’ve been through seems really difficult, do you feel like you have grown in any way as a result of the experience. 
Yes. You know, I came to live here in Spain. It give me a lot of strength to be able to move forward.

[And what strengths do you think you have now?] 
Yes, everything. Like experience, like meeting people, how you can be another different club, how to talk to a person, how to treat a person you don’t know.

[And your strength? Now what is it? In Senegal, you were respectful and hardworking, now what? Is there more?] 
Yes, more things like, because here when you leave your country and go to other countries, there is another different culture. I see, you know, the culture, and it’s a lot of experience, you know, now. Before, when I’m in Senegal, I don’t have much experience, more here right now, more experience.

What are your hopes and dreams for the future now that you are in Europe? 
Experience?

[Hope.]

Do you have dreams, dreams? 

I want him to answer “My dream is”. 
But I just said that now.

Yeah, okay. We really appreciate you answering all these questions and is there anything else you would like to add, maybe a story you want to tell us about himself, what makes him be black? 
[Uhm, is there anything else you would like to share so that people know about this experience, what is it like, that you would like people to know about everything you’ve been through?] 
Yeah, yeah, because I just want to talk about one thing, you know? Because everyone like that, an immigrant to come, to come to Spain, [00:28:33]because of the people who do it, [2.8s] when you’re one percent or ten percent it’s very bad, you know? Everyone, I’m not sorry for coming here or to work, helping my family, doing good things. But people here like Spanish people or not just Spanish and other people who are here are white people, not all of them, but there talking things and things racism think that everyone is the same, we are all bad people and we don’t want nothing.

[And what would you say to these people? If there is, if there is a racist person reading this, what would you say to them?] 
Yes, I say, like, racism is not for this world here, now it is, right now, everyone, … you know? We’re all people, you know? And just different [00:29:33]… [0.0s] , that doesn’t matter. I think it doesn’t matter how they see you, but good heart to help someone who doesn’t, who has nothing.

[Anything else?] 
Yes, you’re human, you have phrases. His world.

I really appreciate you coming for this.