Mustapha

full interview

Okay, Musta, let’s get started. As I told you before, you can leave out anything you don’t want to say and we continue with the next question, okay? What type of housing are you currently living in?
Right now I’m in a foster home.

Can you describe the conditions in which you live in the shelter?
Well, in the shelter… With what I have, I have, I have the chance. Well, it’s like my house here to sleep, to cook. And I feel more. I feel like I’m at home.

Do you feel protected?
I feel protected and they offer me things that allow me to make a living here in Spain. I know that not everyone, not all migrants, have that opportunity. Well, I’m fine here.

How does it make you feel to be here?
Being here makes me feel… More, More, More, More optimistic for looking for me and making a living in Spain and in Europe in general. And I feel more comfortable. Of course, surely there are people who are still on the street and suffer from many conditions that do not allow their lives to improve. Okay, here I am. I’m fine. And we are hanging on little by little.

Little by little. Of course it is. Who do you live with?
I live with, with people in situation, people in an irregular situation. And that they too have… Well, almost 13 people. And some are now processing the papers and others are waiting… They are doing training while waiting to complete it, to meet the conditions, to apply the new immigrant law.

Ok. And how do you spend your time here? Do you work? What do you do?
No, unfortunately, I can’t work because I don’t have the work permit and uh, well, these are things that, that, that make life a little complicated. The lives of migrants here, complicated that they can’t, they can’t work, they don’t have a work permit. And that means that there are already a lot of adversities, uh, that, that migrant people run into them uh… because they can’t work. If you don’t work, you don’t earn money, you can’t survive. Of course in my case, uh, well, hmm. I have an opportunity to go to a shelter and that way I can more or less continue living by improving the situation. But well, there are people who cannot work without their work permit and thus cannot rent a room or a house and continue to live on the street.

Of course, of course. Yes, I understand you. Uh, what are the things that bring you joy or make you feel happy?
The things that bring me joy. It’s just that when I go out with my friends from here and we exchange… Well, a lot of things about culture, about, about, helping each other, about helping each other. And well, when I hear that, there are some migrants who have been able to improve their situation, they have come to request their problems… Above all, when they have gotten the papers approved and those are things that give me joy and that make me feel good, a feeling, a feeling of like, I feel more optimistic.

Yes. Yes. Uh. What has life been like since you came here? To Spain.
Do you mean the road? How…?

No. How, how has your life been since you came here? When did you arrive? Okay, this one. How was it good to be here? What has been the difficulty of being here in Spain?
Well. How is it, how has it gone? Hmm. the situation. The same situation. Since I arrived in Spain to Barcelona.

Yes, that’s right.
Good. Or to Europe in general, right? Or, well, we’re talking about Spain. From Barcelona. Uh, I arrived now almost, almost, almost two years and… of course, at first it was very difficult because I didn’t know anyone. I didn’t speak either, I speak neither Spanish or Catalan. And if I couldn’t, well, I lived a bit on the street because I didn’t have that opportunity at the beginning of, well, a house or a job or anything, because I didn’t know anyone, I didn’t speak the language, and I didn’t have a permit to work or I had money that I don’t have now either. But well, the… I think that since how it has been I can’t describe the whole… all, all the time in one, in a way. But… um… There were like times or periods. The first one is the most difficult. That without speaking languages, without, without housing, without working, well, it was like looking for food in the community kitchen, I tried to do the register and, well, I went to a lot of social office places to ask how my situation can be fixed, how can I get, I don’t know, help from, housing or a little job to earn a little money. It was very very very difficult, because while you don’t have a NIE Number, you are eliminated from many many rights of, of, of, of the, of the, of the human being. A lot of those, especially from work because work helps you to have a home and live a decent life but without papers and NIE Number, here it is a little bit, it’s a little complicated, but after a few months at first it’s well, I managed to meet people in six, eight months. I have learned Spanish. And so I could communicate more or less with people. I have volunteered. So I created a social chat with people who allow me to later… Umm, I got help with a shelter and there life is a little better, because you change from the street to a house. And where I started to put myself, um, I have done a lot of language training and I tried to do something professional. The thing is that it’s a mess and well, I’ve done some things, like learning the language and some social or professional training that I could project later when I would have money.

Of course, of course. Um, how does it feel to be away from your family, your home? How do you feel?
You’re far from family, um, I don’t think anyone likes to be away from their parents and siblings. And well, I think that at the beginning of the first few months is difficult. Then comes a time that you are used to, when you are far from home. But always, always, always, human beings feel a need to see their parents and the brothers and sisters in their family. Uh, well, uh. It’s difficult. Yes, it’s difficult. It’s difficult, very difficult. Especially since I have come a very long way. It’s a, a well, it’s a very, very, very long time. And it’s very, very, very difficult. It’s very difficult.

Yes, it’s not easy at all. Have you ever imagined that you could handle this situation? How did you do it? How do you manage to survive with, with all this, being far away?
Well, how can you handle it on a psychological level, right?

Personal. Psychological. How does it make you feel?
Emm, well. I mean… My life in Morocco wasn’t crazy [laugh] I learned from… facing the problems, problems and…

Challenges.
To fight. To fight against, against, well, to fight in difficult conditions. And well, it’s always, of course, that we learn over time, with the experiences we have. And it was well, hmm. Sometimes it’s hard because you can’t, you can’t manage your feelings, you know? Emotional management is a bit complicated and there are always periods, there are times when I don’t know how to say an exact moments of…

Highs and lows.
Yes, ups and downs. And… But in the end, in the end, when you have a goal, you have to fight and keep going. It wasn’t easy, but I just had to do it and I always with the fight, always ahead. Yes, even if the problems are difficult, but there is no, there is no way. There is no other way. We have to fight, otherwise, I will never, ever achieve my goals. Well, with the fight we have already achieved some objectives and in each, we’re still, well, struggling to achieve others. And that’s life.

That’s the way it is. Do you think you developed any capacity to face these challenges? Do you think you developed any skills, any strengths?
Well, yes. Life in general is a struggle and all the qualities, qualities or, or strengths of the person with strength, strength, strength. They are, they are, they are, they are necessary to fight and any, one of them helps. It helps you at some point in a way and well, the first thing I am as a believer in God, I believe that God is always with me and we have to fight, we have to fight, we have to do. We have to, you have to work to achieve something. It’s just that I don’t expect things to come to me and I have to look for it, okay? I think the matter about luck. There are two. To me, in my opinion, it’s lucky that you’re in everything, everywhere and it comes to you, and there is another luck that you have to look for it too. And well, that, that was a development for me, for, for, for fighting. And well, I also, like, well, I speak some languages, especially English, it helped me during, along the way to communicate with people and explain and express… To express my ideas and feelings and needs and, and to make a living like that. Well, these are also things that I have learned in my country, meditation, my family, my friends and my environment there, to know the good, the bad to avoid the bad and to do the good. That is also how it is said. In English it’s like wisdom, you know the good you do it and you know the bad and you avoid it, you ignore it, that helps you a lot in life. That helped me along the way. There are places along the way that I avoid because I know that they don’t help me improve the situation. There are some places that I always go to because I know that they help me to, to keep going. Well, the personal strengths are that, well, I’m a fighter [laughs]. And I always thought about fighting. It must be done, the objectives must be achieved. You must always have a goal in life.

Yes. Uh, uh, okay, uh, tell me, why did you leave your country? Can you describe what happened that made you leave your country, that you will make that very important decision?
Well, personally, uh, my case. It was, um. The cause was such as job instability. It’s just that sometimes, well, I wouldn’t get a decent permanent job to stay and live in the country. The thing is, sometimes I work for a few months and I don’t work for many months and I couldn’t. I couldn’t collect the, the, the, the expenses and everything. And well, the thing is, um, I had a job offer in Turkey and it was good, it was a good offer, I left university and went to Turkey to work.

Alright. And how was the trip here?
Okay, the journey from here.

Your journey from Morocco to here.
Well I started, it started from Turkey because I worked in Turkey. Since it was a job without, well, it’s not easy to get a work permit in Turkey either. There are a lot of companies that take advantage of people, they don’t give them work permits because that way, they pay them less and don’t pay taxes. And, you know the cost of legislation there in, well, I worked for almost a year, but in the end the work permit was complicated. And there was a lot of control so all the work there, I had no job and well, since there are some people… That they have the idea of making a living in Europe. Well, I had the idea of immigrating, looking for a new life in another country that, that, that it can offer me a decent, permanent job and I left to Greece from Turkey. I crossed the, the river. And it was no, well, it wasn’t like that, easy. But well, I had to cross the river because I can’t enter Greece legally. It’s just that they don’t give me, they don’t give me the visa and I had to, what, to subsist in a, one way or another. But well, there the border in Greece is very, very, very, very, very difficult. Because there’s NATO, there’s black police, there’s a border army too. It is, is, there is a lot of control and what happens there I don’t know, is not told, in the middle. It’s just that many, many people disappear, a lot of people suffer because sometimes they catch you, right? They hit you, hit you, and they take everything you, everything you have. And they return you to Turkey. You’re left with nothing, sometimes without, without sneakers, with nothing. Uh, well, uh, I had to walk eight days in the mountains to get to Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki is a city that I think is far from Edirne, Edirne is the border point between Turkey and Greece. And from Edirne to Thessaloniki I can’t remember how many kilometers, but I think that more, more, more than 460 and so, you have to walk all the way, because if, if you take the bus or the taxis, there is a lot of control. You pay and in the end they catch you at the middle of the, of the road and they return you with nothing to Turkey. Well, I had to, I had to, I had to walk through the jungle crossing rivers at night. By the, during the day we had to rest because we can’t go through the villages, otherwise the police or someone will, well, stop you. Well, we had to walk for nights. And we avoid crossing the towns where we had to bring our food, which sometimes for two or three or four days, water for two or three, depends on the road, if there will be water on the road or not. And well, with heavy things in the backpack. And we walked, climbed, climbed mountains, jungle and forests to cross a city. Well, that, well that, that’s four hours by car but, but four, four days walking. And in the end I went to Exantis, a small town between Thessaloniki and Edirne, and I walked almost 70% of the way. And I would say that I’m going to have a fresh one and because I was so tired, I couldn’t go on. Especially since I can’t see at night, cross the highway. And I knew that we had to cross many, many highways at night. And like the light at night gives me, no, I can’t cross a highway at night. The thing is that the light…

It bothers you.
Light bothers my eyes. Well, I had to, well, I had to take a risk and take the bus. I bought a ticket. But it was well, it was very early on a Sunday there, in Exantis, entering the village. I knew it’s a very, very high risk because the police can catch us at any time and return me, they could return me with nothing after eight days of walking in, in the jungle. And I would lose everything, which I did in the beginning. But well, I had to take the risk and well, take the bus that they are, with the bus from Exantis to Thessaloniki, two or three hours. If there wasn’t, if there was no way, otherwise there would be no control along the way. Uh, well. Take the bus to, from Exantis to Thessaloniki at, arriving at the village at five o’clock on foot. And at seven I was waiting for the station to open at seven, and bought a ticket from Exantis to Thessaloniki. And it was three, three hours on the bus, on the bus and it was the 3 longest hours of my life, okay? I was like very nervous and at any moment they stop me and well, and I finally managed to get to Thessaloniki. That some friends that I left on the road ten days later arrived because they continued walking, because in total they had done 18 days.

Quite a lot, a lot.
Quite a lot, yes, yes, it was the ten days on the bus for me it was three hours. Well, in the end I’m in Thessaloniki, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I have no idea that, well, I know that, that I’m going to, that I have to look for the migrant shelter center, but it was, it was very far from the city and it was full of people. Well, catastrophic situation, people are like they are on the street, anyway. Uh, well, um, um, I started looking for food first, looking for some associations, associations that provide food for the day. A breakfast, a dinner or something like that. Searching and I stayed there, almost, almost, almost a week on the street. On the street completely on the street because the center was like it’s too far away. And the thing is that it was a disaster because of the people who were there. It was a disaster. Well, then, we followed the road, so when we traveled to the next country, which was Albania, and Albania between, between the Greek border and, to the capital Tirana, well, it was four days in the mountains, we bought food with, with other boys that I met there in the city. In my situation they were also looking for how, how to cross the border and follow the road to, to Europe on “Balkan routes” and we had to find a way to cross the border between Greece and Albania walking to, to a town, such as Kushovë and then Kushovë we tried to find a transport because there is less control and there we could play this role of transport, if not, if we didn’t walk two more weeks. And, well, we crossed the border there, we continued hiking the mountains of Albania until, until the fourth day without, without, without enough food without, without, without enough water. And we have to fight and hold on and well, in the end we arrived in Kushovë and from Kushovë a bus to Tirana, the capital. And Tirana there everyone leaves because of that, what happens is that sometimes the police stop us and we have to run away to escape and so you lose your friends, your partner and you follow the path alone. And that happened in Kushovë because there was a bus station control that we had to cover, everyone goes to their…

Of course, their destiny.
Yes, yes, on their way. Well, when I arrived in Tirana and from Tirana, the capital that is in the center of Albania, uh, there I took a taxi, first a bus and then a taxi to the border with Montenegro. And I crossed the border in Montenegro, crossing the, the highest mountain and the mountain in Montenegro. It will take all night, a whole night of hiking in the mountains and early on we arrived in Podgorica, the capital of, the capital of Montenegro and at the entrance they were police officers and we were with two new boys from the countryside. Yes, and we had to get away from, very early, because in the village, at the entrance to the capital, there was police control. We escaped, we ran to the mountain and then, in four or five hours, we went down another, another, another side of the mountain and I entered the city, to Podgorica. Well, I went to the migrant center there. And well after Montenegro for a week, for a week in Montenegro I was preparing my things to continue on the road to Bosnia. And well, always with the same, the same adversities that you don’t eat well, you don’t have enough money for, for expenses. Well, you buy food for €20 and that’s it. Grab the backpack and into the woods, into the mountains. And you have to, that’s the way it is for, to get to the other side of the world. It’s like that, it’s not easy. It’s not an easy thing. It’s just that there are always a lot of stories that can’t be told because that’s how we spent 3 weeks talking about stories because every, every day is a story. Every moment is a story, every hour is a story. It’s just that… You don’t sleep well there. You’re sleeping on the street or in the woods, sometimes in the cold it’s -20°C in that area of Balkan, Albania or Montenegro. You are, you are, you are in the mountains without, without cover, without blankets, without anything, without bed and -20. Imagine that there are a lot of people who died along the way. There are people who leave and disappear. There are, well, a lot of sad, sad stories along the way that are not told. And, no, no, the truth is, that, that I think this road is a, a disaster. That it’s dark that, that, that I don’t know, I don’t know, no, it doesn’t have the, the the value, the true value at the level of the media, at the media because you’ve never seen on a video people talking about the Balkan road. There’s no enough talk and without details…

Of course, of course.
There are mafias that take advantage of people, human trafficking and suffering. People who want to, they come from, I don’t know, from Nigeria, from Afghanistan, from North Africa, from Africa in general and from Asia to seek life. And in the end they either disappear or suffer. And they also suffer from those, from the border police who don’t apply the law, don’t apply to human rights conventions worldwide. No, they don’t apply them and they get two things out. You ask to do it, you don’t ask for it anyway. They don’t hear you, because you can’t see anything there. They, they feel protected and they do what they want, the border police and so you suffer and well in the end, the victims are people who cross the road, this path that, this path that is very, very, very hard. Well, I came to Montenegro from Montenegro to Bosnia. It’s another story, um, six days of walking with sandals, sandals because the sneakers, there was a lot, a lot of rain in the mountains. Very, well, very, very cold. And well, the rain, the, the sneakers, the sneakers and everything. Yes, uh, well, uh. Keep walking in sandals in the mountains. Hmm. Almost six, six days already in the cold. It was, it was winter and it was less there. It seems to me that there are -3°C or -14°C more or less, every step you feel, we sleep in the mountains and also people from the borders who don’t like to see foreigners passing by and sometimes, sometimes they throw you like fire, uh, it was difficult, it was a very difficult period. Arriving in Sarajevo after six days from Montenegro, it was very cold, there was rain in the city and I didn’t know where to go because, on the street there, you had to find a way to go to the camp, to the migrants’ center, which is now also a disaster. The thing is that countries, the migration hotspots for migrant people, although they have camps or centers but because of the number of people who come or for other reasons, the situation is fatal, it’s fatal. Uh, I went, they were two big stores. And each store carries almost 50. If you want to go to the bathroom and you have to wait in a very long line, and very little food. Well, I had to leave that the center, because it doesn’t matter if I’m in the center or on the street. Sometimes you feel the street more comfortable than some centers. Well, there, well, the situation was not, it wasn’t good to stay and rest, you had to, even though I was injured because I arrived injured and couldn’t continue with the road to Croatia, I couldn’t go on and I had to rest for a week. While the conditions, although not the best, but I had to wait a week for the… I was injured in my left leg. I had to wait until…

That you felt good…
That, yes. Well, after a week or ten days or so. Yes. I tried to continue the road to Croatia and Croatia is a very special story because I tried nine times in different ways, from different places to cross the border but there was a lot of control from NATO, the black police, the border army. Every time they catch me and take everything out of me. Nine times. It’s just that I live across the border in the mountains. I go four or five days until I reach a point they come out of the woods and catch me and return me without a phone, without a phone, without a backpack, without a jacket, sometimes, and there are people who receive…

Hits.
Hits. And. Well, a lot of things are being done against human rights at borders. And that, no one talks about it, even if they talk, even if they talk in the end it doesn’t make much change because the people who are in charge of… There is a… Well, a complicated story, politics controls immigration in this regard and it was difficult, it was difficult. I had to wait longer, I tried, tried the first time when I got back very tired, very tired. Imagine someone who is, who has walked four or five days in the mountains, woods with heavily loaded backpacks and in the end they return with nothing. To where? To the street in Bosnia, to the street, to the street. With less security. Not even security, or food, or anything.

And what did you do to leave Bosnia?
I tried nine times. The first, the second, it is that we just must fight. You have to try because there is no way, there is no other option if you are there suffering on the street, because it is better than your suffering, that you are on the street. If you do it anyway, then in the mountains, on the border, at least you are achieving the goal. Try it. It’s just that you suffer anyway. If, you are, if they return you to the streets in Bosnia, well, it’s the same in the mountains there… Trying to cross borders because you’re not in a better situation. No, this one is not any better than the other. Well, at least I’m trying to cross. If I’m going to sleep on the street, well, I’m still sleeping in the mountains trying to cross. It’s the same cold, it’s the same hunger, it’s the same suffering. I had to try, to try once, second, 13 times until I, until… I was sick from the cold because my body couldn’t take it any longer…

Hypothermia.
I couldn’t take it any longer. Yes. He had a cold illness and…

From hypothermia.
Yes, hypothermia. It was also the era of Corona. And well, a lot of viruses in the air. Well, not quite. And not in hospitals. In Bosnia, they didn’t let me in because I had no NIE Number. Well, I couldn’t get into the hospital. I had to find a room with someone from there or someone who can help me for a time, for a period of a week or two weeks to see what to expect. And in the end there was a boy who helped me and left me in his room there, he gave me help, food, medication and there was an association that from time to time comes to see me, to give me some medications or something like that. Until I could wait. And then I follow the path because, because I’m in Bosnia. There is only Croatia, Slovenia and that’s it, Slovenia or Italy more or less. Well, I had to keep going because I’m in the last stages of the journey. I had to keep going, I had to fight more than fight and I tried harder for the fourth time I tried I don’t know, truck or I don’t know walking in… crossing borders from jungle and there are minefields. I remember one day when I came in with some fellow friends to cross from Bosnia to Croatia and in the end we found ourselves in a minefield because there had been a war there a long time ago and we couldn’t go back or move forward. We were “stop” as between, between, we didn’t know what to do then we continued, because it’s the same if you come back or continue you’re at the finish line, yes, the goal, yes, the minefield and there was no security, well, I tried it the fourth time up to nine times. Yes…

And after Bosnia you went…?
Bosnia. Well, Bosnia nine times to Croatia, to Croatia I continue on the road, I stayed in Croatia for a month and continued on the road to Slovenia. Slovenia two weeks and then to Italy.

And from Italy. You came to…
Italy to France, to France. Well, Italy, France from the mountains it was also a very hard night in Oulx, the town of Oulx in France, uh in Italy and Bresson in France. I crossed the border from France to Spain.

Wow, it was a super tough and difficult road, wasn’t it?
Well, yes, it’s difficult, it’s because you can’t tell everything along the way because that’s complicated. [someone greets] It was, it was difficult because, uh, well, not just my experience, but how I met people along the way, there are people who went crazy, people who disappeared, people who died, who died in the snow.

Of course.
In the woods. And people who are missing because they have lost their way in the jungle. And people that a lot of people died in the rivers there, there are rivers that are very big and they can’t cross the river from a bridge because surely there would be, there would be police. Well, people try to cross the river on the other side, in another way, and they die. And well, a lot of suffering and a lot of discrimination. Well, also the police who, that, that, who take things out of people. They throw people out of the country and so is human trafficking. People who take advantage of the immigrant situation along the way. It’s all in the dark. Everything is not seen, but it exists.

Yes, of course, of course. And does the, um, the situation you faced today affect you? Do you feel that it affects you? In what way?
Yes, of course. Any experience in life always affects you, your future, your behavior, your, your personality that always affects you and me now… Well, I think I have fought against all that, the adversities that I have had and although I am now, I feel in a better situation on this subject, I am more comfortable, a situation that now I, um, I mean, is an opportunity that not all immigrants have. Only very few people and thanks to those organizations that help good people, I am in a better condition here but the experience always affects my personality. Sometimes there was always the fear that I would be caught. No, no, sometimes it gives you a little distrust or something. Okay, but on the other side it’s also an experience that allows me to see the dark world in reality.

Before all this event happened that you left your home and went through this whole situation. Um… What was your dream?
Well, my life’s dream is, is to be someone who, who… I didn’t mean to say importance in life, but everyone, one’s life is important. Each one is according to what they contribute to the community, what they bring to the world, it was always my dream to contribute something that, a good thing to humanity, to people, as I feel that my performance is enough, to the community, to the city, to humanity. Well, even if it is, I don’t know, to teach a language, to help people in society, to help people who are in difficult situations. Well, I’ve always had that and along the way, since I had that difficult situation with people who also had the same situation, the same difficulties, well, I tried and tried I always tried to help because it was, it was a very interesting, very interesting trait for me. Well, even if it’s a difficult situation, we always have to be very united and help each other. The dream was that, it was to bring something good to the community, to the environment.

Of course, of course. Before leaving your home country, what was your strength? Have you kept it?
The strengths I had are, well, since I speak Arabic, French and English, they are strengths that open up a lot of doors in life and also other strengths that I am sociable with people and I always try to share many things with them and my experiences and learn from them, and also, well, in my country I also tried not to do social work since I don’t consider it a job, but an obligation of every human being who has to do it to help other brothers and sisters. And that’s what, I think it’s an opportunity that I had because I’ve done a lot of volunteering in the social sector, there and also along the way that during my difficult situation with my colleagues, I try to provide them with something, something that can improve the situation even for a moment, you know? Even if it’s with a joke that makes people laugh. It’s something that I bring and well, I think that’s a new strength that I had and that I still maintain it, I maintain it.

And now what are your hopes, dreams for the future? What are your hopes?
Personal?

Your dreams.
My dreams? It’s, well, the goals are to get a job for my economic security. And here, and then the dream is, is to make more shelters in the world. Not just here. It’s a dream. The dream has to be very big.

You’ve been through a lot.
Yes, there is, from my experience is to bring that experience to people. Well, on the other hand, people in a way that helped them. Well, it shouldn’t be an experience that didn’t serve us, or changed, no, I, I’ve always believed that we can change reality. The sad reality can change, even if the dream is very big, but it’s always possible and we have to get there to the dream, little by little. Well, in the beginning the dream is to make or build more shelters. And uh, giving more opportunities, fighting against the discrimination faced by those people who try to improve their lives, who don’t… They are people who, who are trying to improve their social situation who are… I believe that I have fought for movement, for freedom of movement in the world, that everyone can move. And you can earn a living. And that you would have a life, a decent life in your country or in another country.

Of course. Okay, Mustapha. Well, thank you so much for answering these questions. Is there anything you want to add? Um… And that it can help people to better understand the lives of refugees.
Yes, well, I want to, I want to, I would like to comment on that… When you see someone is on the street sleeping on the street with, in dirty clothes and with hair that haven’t been cut, haven’t been cut for months and months. That doesn’t mean that boy has chosen that life. That, no, we don’t judge each other and that he is a human being. That is life, if it happens to him, to him today you are not sure that it will happen to you too one day. And well, if you can approach him, you can talk to him, you can communicate, you can understand or exchange experiences, because each image has a story. That’s an image on the street, we don’t have to see it as something… We are used to seeing it, because, “yes, yes, there are people who are on the street” well you see it normally, like, like in a, a, a bench, a bench in the street or in the garden. It is an image that is very… We are… it’s customary. No, it’s not common. No, no, no. Those people sleeping on the street have their stories, uh, we, well, in this world, now of capitalism, of money, of material things, we have focused a lot on the material aspect. We have, we have forgotten the human sense. Uh, I would say that always… my message is to talk to those people. Give them something, if you can’t, a conversation, well, at least.

Of course, Mustapha. Really very grateful. I loved hearing your story. And you see that… Very, very, very good.