Roksolana Hbur

full interview

He won’t go anywhere. Just spoke loudly, but so that we could be heard. Please tell me where you live now and with whom.
Do I live in New York? Astoria. I live with my son now. My son is one and a half years old.
Do you like living here?
Already now, after two and a half years of living here, I am beginning to adapt. And already now we can say that I am starting to get some pleasure from life in New York. But only now, probably. Only in the last six months began to come this feeling – no.
And how was it before?
I wanted to go home, I wanted to go home. I even looked at the tickets several times to see how much they cost. I was ready to go when I was pregnant, I was ready to go with a newborn baby. But it was so morally difficult for everything, well, everything is not like that, but at home it’s all its own, you know, and I just really wanted to return to that environment. Where your people, your friends, your shops, and your stalls are. I just wanted to get out of here.

What have you been feeling for these two years?
Well, I don’t know if it can be said that it was some kind of depression, but it was such a pretty severe condition when… I called a lot of my friends and I just wanted to get some energy from them, at least to restore myself a little like that. And if I didn’t talk to them at all, it seems to me that it would be depression, and it would come back with something bad. Because people make many mistakes in a state where they cannot think with their heads adequately. And it felt… It felt like I was very lonely, that I was alone, that there was no support, and I still felt responsible for leaving them there.
Why do you think so? You came with a little child.
Yes, but here’s the grief, it’s easier to experience when everyone is together. And when something bad happens there, when some bombs fall there, you always want to be near your people. You know, even when something bad happens, but you see that person right now by your side, it’s much easier to survive than when you’re just on your phone watching the news, and you don’t know what’s going on. When you cook in all this, then it is somehow still experienced.
Tell me a little bit about how you spend your time here.
At this point, I started working. And this is my great outlet, because now I have very little time in principle for any unnecessary thoughts, actions, and so on. So now work and a child are two of my great salvations. Of course, first of all, it is a child, and, yes, a job and a child – at the moment, it is.
And who do you work for now?
Legal assistance (assistant immigration lawyer).
Tell us what brings you joy, makes you happy.
Well, it’s just a good time with the family. I dream of those times when we once gathered together at one big table. I still have a very supportive family. We sing a lot of folk, all kinds of different songs, still old. Grandma taught us.. And my sister just came to Canada in February, and I went there to see them. They are joined there by a sister with a husband and a daughter, and also a husband’s brother with his family. That is, there were a lot of us there, plus me, my mom, little one. That is, we were there, roughly, ten people. And when we finally all sat down together at the table after two years of this feeling that you are not needed and you are abandoned and you are alone, and then you sit at the table like the whole family. Well, it was just wow. It was something fantastic.
I’m so upset, I understand what you’re talking about… Tell me what good happened here.
Here in New York? A lot of good people of ours. In fact, I have met many bad people of ours. I speak for Ukrainians, but the people who have stayed with me now, after these two years, are simply incredible. And they understand all your pain, everything. You don’t even need to talk. And that’s probably one of the greatest values that New York and emigration have given me. That these pieces of my soul were found here.
What was difficult? You talked a little about it, but maybe you will remember some points again.
It was difficult in principle to move, especially with family life and an American husband. There wasn’t any kind of understanding and support I wanted from him, because he… Well, he can not understand in principle what I am experiencing, what is happening at home. For him, it was, like, wars have always been. I don’t understand… There are Americans, especially, always fighting somewhere. The American army is always somewhere.
But never here.
Yes, but never here. Yes, they do not understand. For him, it’s like this: well, war, ok. It’s ok, everywhere wars have always been hard. I understand you, but you have to focus on yourself, on the child, and focusing on yourself and the child is not real. And that’s the misunderstanding between us. It cracked a lot. Well, as a result, of course, she experienced some abusive relationships there, and now we are at the stage of divorce, and this is all very difficult. But again, I have very good people by my side who support me very much, who help me a lot. And my little son, he resurrects me every day, you might say.
Where do you find the strength to live through all these difficult moments?
It’s all for the sake of my son. Because the war has begun. And when it was, everything was already very serious. Bucha, Raisin.. That’s all, I was already pregnant.
Tell us where you get the strength to live through all these difficult experiences and situations.
This is all real thanks only to my son. Because the war started, and I became pregnant very quickly after I learned about the war. In principle, less than six months passed there. When all the biggest tragedies happened in Ukraine, and I was pregnant, I realized that I could not worry so much, and something else. It even came to the point that I stopped sitting there on the Internet, reading the news, because I understood that this would then be said to my child. It’s going to be bad for him, but it’s still, you know, it was for two days I stopped, and then I didn’t care. My whole family is there, my dad, my brother, everyone is there.
What do you feel when you think of your family who stayed there?
It’s very hard for me. I would love to bring everyone here. I would love to give you a safe place. More precisely, I would very much like to end the war. My favorite method.. Just stop, because it’s already too much, already too much. But I understand that I am not able, and therefore, I just want to collect all my own and take it somewhere. But, firstly, I am not in power, and secondly, they do not want everything. And I’m sitting here because I know what I’m doing. I want to go home, come back, but I can’t take on such a huge responsibility for my son. If something happens, I won’t forgive myself. And I even thought… You know, what happens if, for example, he dies, and I stay, or I die, and he stays. Well, it’s okay if the two of us die. Well, I mean… You see, these are some thoughts. So I can’t afford to just take it… He is not to blame. It has nothing to do with him, and that’s it.
Have you felt any sense of belonging or non-affiliation with discrimination living here now?
I once had a case where a black African American answered me so very sweetly that I’m sorry, but I unfortunately can’t help you with anything. I was in the governor’s office, and when I had a problem, I asked the manager to let me talk to someone. I was fed there, and so on. And all the staff were African American. And they just made me angry. And it was probably one of the greatest moments of all… Yes, discrimination, to be honest, is even sometimes felt by their people, because certain people, for some reason, believe that they can somehow be better than someone. Or a lot on the Internet is caught when people there ask for something for benefits, how to get them, and there is a lot of hype. By type: yes, you have already guessed how much you can sit on benefits and so on. It offends me a lot. I don’t understand why people count someone’s money at all, and the benefits are out of their pocket. Why at all? For what? You don’t like it – just keep quiet. Although I am sure that everyone here receives some benefits, either received before, or used at least once, a food bank, or something else, definitely. But very much, even our people love to condemn. And this is very much felt abroad, in principle, in a favorite other country, not only in America.
Could you ever imagine that you could find the strength to cope with this situation, to improve your life here?
I never planned to move to America at all. I’ve never seen myself here as a US citizen, or anything else. I once had thoughts that maybe we should go see what there is on the other side of the world, you know, another continent, something for sure new, interesting. But to live here and even more so because I will have a non-Ukrainian husband, and I will have a child with an American passport. In principle, I could not imagine this in my life. And so that I… No one ever expected war. No one ever expected all this. And I, like everyone else, was completely confused, “killed”, recovered many times, was again “killed” for some reason there or because of the war. But I understand that at the moment, because of what I went through, women, in principle, are very strong by nature. A woman can recover and restore everything around herself, just as she can destroy everything around her, even herself. Therefore, I understand that a woman has great power and can cope with everything, especially if she has motivation in the form of a child. So at the moment, this now sounds like the norm to me. Once before a child, before the war, if someone told me something like that, I was sure that I would have crumbled by now.
For context, you can tell a little about why you left Ukraine and when.
I left Ukraine on the twenty-sixth of February of the twenty-second year. I was planning a trip with my boyfriend at the time. My boyfriend is American. He and I planned to meet, so we had some definite plans for our married life, but I wasn’t ready for it to happen so quickly. Because at that time, I had a full job in Ukraine. In my full life, I should have just gone on vacation and returned home. But in connection with the fact that there was a war, in connection with the fact that I had nowhere to go back. My boyfriend, you can just say, took everything into his own hands and did not let me return, although I wanted to. Even at that terrible time. And I forgot what the question was for.
When you left, what happened?
I left in February, and as a result, my boyfriend simply did not let me return. We decided to plan something new for our lives. I knew that at home… I knew the war was for a long time. We all hoped it would end. As Orestovich said there: a week or two.. Everyone hoped, but I knew that it would not be fast, because, first of all, it is a very large financing that is very beneficial to different people. Secondly, the kind of things that have happened to us, like Bucha… They will never pass in a year, even. And as we already know, both for two and for three. So I knew I had to do something. I don’t have anywhere to go back. I don’t know what my future will be. I knew I could have a future here in America. I have a loved one. I wanted at that moment a full-fledged family, a child. I knew I wouldn’t be able to do that at home. I can’t afford it, get pregnant there. It’s too much of a responsibility. So yes, I just decided to stay here.
How did you feel when you left?
I cried a lot. I drove a car, I was behind the wheel for twenty-seven hours. I stopped once for three hours at the gas station to sleep. And all the time I cried. I ate in the car and cried, I drank coffee in the car and cried. I drove all the way, and so I wiped my tears because I couldn’t see where I was going. But I cried all the way, but it was because I was still hoping that I would come back. After all, I hadn’t even gathered my things. I took such an ordinary little suitcase, threw it there, and there were three T-shirts, two jeans, and I left. I was sure that I would be back in a couple of weeks. At that moment, I thought to myself.
Did you leave yourself? How did you cross the border?
I left with my mother. I took my mother. We left through… we crossed the Romanian border because it was unreal to cross Poland. Yes, my friends told me that you will go to Poland, and you will stay for five days. By the way, my sister is a cousin. She also tried to leave because they had two small children. And they stood at the border for three days, turned around, and returned home, because they simply did not have food to stand in line. They returned, threw away everything they had taken there with them, packed a full trunk of food, drinks, and left again. Again, they stood there for three days in line. I left there a couple of days later. So my friends just suggested such a small border with Romania, it is little known. There is a very bad road, and no one ever goes there. Therefore, I was advised, and I went across this border, through Romania, through Slovakia, to Poland. That’s how I went around, but I managed to do it in twenty-seven hours, and people stood in Poland for five days.
I went along with my mother. And behind the wheel?
I’m the only one driving, my mom doesn’t drive.
Wow, this is a tough road. How long did it take?
It was difficult for me emotionally. On account of driving, I have no problems, because my dad is a trucker. I have been riding in all kinds of transport since childhood, so steering is not a problem at all for me. But emotionally, it was very difficult.
Do you remember any moments when it was especially difficult for you while crossing the border? You have already told in principle that you cried all the time and slept for three hours at the gas station. Maybe something else like that.
About the border crossing itself, I have nothing to say. Since that’s the only thing that was. But you asked me this question. And I remembered the situation… On the morning of February 24, I went to the airport in Lviv, because I had a trip to my beloved, but I went to the airport, not expecting anything bad, and I came. I was turned away. I wasn’t even allowed into the airport. I was told that the sky is closed, we do not let anyone out, and we do not accept. No one explained anything about what happened. We didn’t know anything yet. And I just called a taxi. I’m going back home. And then, at six in the morning, we in Ivano-Frankivsk began to be bombed later. Six in the morning. I’m still riding in a taxi, and my mother calls me and says, “I just saw six rockets fall into our airport.”
Tsu, where was she? Is it in Ivano Frankivsk?
I live on the ninth floor and have a very good view. Just there in the direction of the mountains, and there is just the airport. And before us, there are no other houses of such height. That’s why my mom saw it all there. And she called me, she said, “Dotka, I just saw six rockets that fell on the airport and just silence.” Mom is silent, I am silent, in shock. But the fact is that for us there is still a big… This was a big trigger, because we lived in the city of Kramatorsk and we had already seen the war in us. We lived under a bomb for a year in Kramatorsk. It was very difficult…
There we lived for a year in Kramatorsk.
Two thousand and fourteenth year, when they started bombing us there, that’s it. And, by the way, the whole war, in principle, began precisely from the city of Kramatorsk. And I remember very well that day when I went to work, and we had some people in the city center with guns, buses were on fire, roads were blocked, and no one understood anything. People just go to work. We have some shooting in the middle of the city, and buses are on fire. Therefore… Yeah, so when my mom told me about the six rockets, it was like, you know, there was this silence, but in my head it was, what again? We just walked away from it all. Again? But no one said anything, even… and that’s it. I don’t even know what to tell you. And I remembered this situation. And that’s six missiles at our airport.
Do you often mention these events at the beginning of a full-scale attack by Russia?
Well, yes, because I have many friends, we have shared chats in Telegram, and there they always correspond with each other. What’s there, people, there that, there that, go there and there. And I’m always there, I read everything there. And different people from Ukraine, whom you meet here, for example, there, they say, I’m from Odesa, you know. And you just remind yourself of all the situations that were in Odesa. Come on, I’ll step away.
AND.
How long, how often do I remember? I often remember because all my people are there, and I still have a dad. He lives very close to the thermal power plant in Burshtyn. It is quite large, it is bombed a lot, very much. And I even had moments when my dad and I talked on WhatsApp, and I heard the explosions, they were so strong. So yes, I watch the news. I can not say that much, because in reality, I just do not have enough time for it. But in my case, I always have something there somewhere basic, at least where my people are, then I look over there, see if everything is okay or not okay. I have a lot in Kharkov. My best friend lives in Kharkov, and they are very loud there; they have a lot there. So, yes, I look, check, ask, write off, who, how, where, and… Every day. How much is it already… And every day we cook in all this.
I understand. What did you dream about as a child? What was your dream before the war?
I wanted to earn a lot and take my mother abroad and buy everything for her, because my parents divorced. We had a very difficult financial situation. My mother has never been abroad. More precisely, she began to ride already thanks to me, when I was already about twenty-three, probably. I took her abroad for the first time. Yes, so I always dreamed that I would earn a lot. I once thought that I would make an animal shelter and carry my mother everywhere, and feed all the animals in the world. Because I once had a moment when I had twelve cats in my house. I went to school and carried it home, then you know, everything on the way was, I picked everything up. My mother was happy that you would bring a friend, go with him. Yes, that’s why it is.
When you left your home, what did you dream about for the future? You can also say: I dreamed that…
I dreamed that I could build a happy family and come home and show this.. Show him, look what a beautiful country we have, see how cool everything is here. It’s not like in your America, you know. I dreamed that I would bring my beloved person here and proudly drive him to the city, show him all. I had such a big dream.
Before you left Ukraine, what would you call your strengths? Did you manage to save them?
Well, I’m so persistent. And although I am at the same time, I have such two sides that I can often not finish something that I started. But if I need it, I can turn the mountains over. And here I have this perseverance, which has helped me a lot at home in Ukraine, especially in my work. Well, and in principle here. Because of all this, I now have a job. And what I have.
Evaluations, now, are there many difficulties? Do you still live with them? Do you think you managed to grow up as a result of this experience? Have you changed?
I changed a lot, because I began to look at many things more calmly. I’ve always had this heightened sense of justice since I was young, you know. And when something is very unfair, I fight very hard there for something and very often not for myself, but for other people. If there for someone, injustice was shown to someone, but it always went sideways for me, so to speak. And after everything that I saw in life passed, I realized that, first of all, you do not need to help people who do not ask you, because you will be guilty. Secondly, yes, the world is unfair, and this is a fact. And you are alone, that’s all. Very often, you just need to close your eyes, reconcile, because it will cost you more. Struggle emotionally, you burn out, you fight, you don’t get what you want, and it just suffocates you, and you don’t have the strength for anything more, and you get distracted from your main tasks. Therefore, I learned not to pay attention to a lot of such trifles, so to speak. I realized that I could do a lot. I realized that to be happy, you don’t need another person. You can be happy with yourself. And that’s ok. I realized that you do not need many friends; you just need one person nearby who will understand you. And I realized that there are a lot of hypocrites in this world, people like that, unfortunately, who think that showing yourself somehow better, higher is okay and it’s good, and it’s good to be better. And, by the way, in America, I probably felt it the most, because I had the opportunity with my husband to go to certain events, to meet, to talk to people who earn a lot, who have achieved a lot in their lives. And these people are right here in America, they’re pretty American, and they share with you very easily how they’ve succeeded. They do not hide, they are, in principle, ready to talk to you, even if you have nothing. In Ukraine, if I approached a businessman, he would tell me: Get away from me, all. What do you want from me? And he would have responded rudely to you. There is no such thing here. That is, there are a lot of fake people, but good people, such as the real ones. I met those people who have achieved a lot in their lives. And these people are very easy to divide and very easy to climb. And they are ready to help you with just that.

This is a good example.
Yes. For us, this is very important because, for some reason, we have a very strong sense of competition. You know, once there was a store there, they opened a store there in the village, then it was necessary to burn that store, because it is my competitor. Here in America, we need to go with you, sit down at the table, and agree on what we’re going to do. Let’s come up with something cool so that you and I will grow together. That’s not what we have. We lack that very much. And we must adopt this. Somehow to learn like that, I don’t know how… I can’t even think of it.
Is there anything you would like to add for other people to better understand the immigrant experience?
I’m sure everyone has ever learned a language, whatever, and I don’t know there, maybe it’s not that important for Americans, but still for people from all over the world, especially for Europeans. Europeans often change their countries. They move very often, and there are two hundred different languages, and everyone teaches, and our people know four, five different languages. And when you are just learning and you are trying to speak, it is very difficult for you. It’s great when that person supports you. She helps you find the right word, she can correct you there, but so carefully, and not with some sarcasm there. And this feeling of support is… I also experienced it here in America, when I started speaking English, I came here with zero English, and when I was given this, I never felt that way in my life. It was very cool, very cool. And I want you, all people, to remember when you learned something, when there was your first job, when you first got behind the wheel, and when you didn’t know… You even took your first steps. Someone supported you in your endeavors. Therefore, we need to support, regardless of whether we are Ukrainians or we are of some other nationality. Just support humanity has each other, and that’s it. Then everything will be cool. Not competition, not something there, I do not know what, that supporting each other is probably already some kind of key to everything in principle.
It’s very cool. Tell me more, please. What are your dreams and hopes for the future? You can start: my dream…
My dream is to end the war, not only in Ukraine, but all over the world. Israel, Iran, Iraq – this all has to end. People have to live; people have to enjoy life. They are supposed to bring normal, adequate people into this world without any psychological trauma. No one should give birth in basements. This all has to stop. This is the very first and most important thing. And second, again, I hope that people will understand that the greatest value is to be human. All. This is the biggest dream of dreams. I want my son to grow up in an adequate society without war, without aggression, without any attacks, without any such “bites”. As these people want to “bite” each other, they touch the living. For what? What is the point of this? I don’t want to. I don’t want to see that. I don’t want my son to be like that. I don’t want humanity to be like that. I dream about it very much. Perhaps these are now new people who were born with us, now in this difficult time. I am very hopeful that they will be able to bring this to a new world. They will be able to somehow expand it all in a new way.
Yes, thank you. Thank you very much for such kind words.