Rosa Argel Martínez

full interview

Well. Hello, Rosa. Welcome here. I welcome you. 
Thank you.

You’re welcome. Well, let’s start. So my question is… What type of housing do you live in? 
I live in a rented room.

So, you live, you rent a room now. 
A room and I’m there.

Okay, great, great, great. And you can describe the conditions. 
In which I live in the room?

Yes.
Let’s see. It’s a small room. It has a comfortable bed. Well, I live in a family that is Hindu. The family is from India.

From India? 
From India.

Okay. 
Uh, well, I have the luck that not many people have; I have been welcomed as… Let’s not say as part of his family, but I feel good there for the time being. Well, not everyone can say the same thing.

All right, all right. And so you live with this family. 
Yes, I live with that family.

Okay. 
I pay €350.

Okay, great. And then how do you spend your time here? I mean, here, in Spain, in Barcelona. How do you spend your time, day by day? 
Day to day? Day by day I’m like most immigrants, working off the books. Only three hours. I work three hours a day and with those three hours I pay for the room. 

Okay. 
And when it comes to food, I have to go to a community kitchen.

Okay. 
To a community kitchen.

Okay, perfect. And what are some of the things that bring you joy or make you happy? 
[laughs] Oh, good question [laughs]. Let’s see, here…

Yes.
The truth, I don’t know. Safety. I feel… I feel safe, but I’m very concerned about the racism part, let’s put it that way.

Racism. 
Racism, classification, let’s say it that way. No, people close the doors a lot, no matter what you know or what you don’t know. The lack of opportunities, that’s kind of what worries me the most. 

Okay, okay, okay. But what about, I mean, how does that make you feel in this sense of racism, what worries you about that, how does it make you feel? 
Hmm. Well.

Does it make you feel anger or sadness, for example?
No, no, not really I, no… I am, psychologically speaking, a structural person. In a way it hurts because everyone gives what they carry with themselves. I can’t give you what I don’t have with me. So the truth is, in a certain way it doesn’t affect me that much. I laugh. I have been rejected because I am Colombian or because I am from Medellín. Uh, people talk to me a lot, I mean, they look at me up and down. But…

That is to say. But, but… 
But it’s not… let’s say in my case, in the sense that it affects me. I know that I am a person who has very good self-esteem, so I know that it doesn’t affect me that much. But I have known that some companions of the group where we are going to, where we are going to have lunch, they feel very bad. Let’s put it that way in a single word. As a woman, I am at a standstill and I don’t care what other people think. 

So, we could… 
As for self-esteem, I don’t have much of a problem.

Okay. So we could say that that makes you, for example, feel a little bad or something like that. It could be interpreted that way too. 
Yes, it makes me feel bad, because even though we are different cultures, diversity of cultures as it is here in Europe – here especially, in Barcelona – this should not be the case because we all speak practically the same language and you really see a lot of extreme racism. Racism and lack of opportunities is… I think it’s due to racism. That’s what I think. I was a businesswoman and I have a lot of knowledge related to human behavior, and sometimes the job is there and I don’t give it to you because you’re black or I don’t give it to you because you’re from there or I don’t give it to you because you’re from there. I’m looking for a person to suit my taste, that is, as a person; for my taste not so that, regardless of the knowledge that I have, I think that if maybe there wasn’t so much racism, the situation would be different.

And what has life been like since you arrived? I mean, what was the good thing about being here? What was the difficult part?
The difficult thing. As I told you, racism, classism. Yes, that’s the most part. And the other is that nobody cares about anyone’s pain. If you don’t have, nobody cares about, about you. You can have an unoccupied room, but “I just don’t rent it to you because you’re from Colombia, because you’re from Peru. I’m looking for a person who comes from France or I want someone who comes from Germany and, and you don’t meet the requirements regardless of whether you have your money.” 

I see, I see. But life here since you arrived how, how was it really? I mean… 
Very tough. Tough. In a single word, as we say, very tough.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, it is perfectly understood. 
Very tough. You really have to go outside. In other words, you have to make a living, you have to be “sharp”,  as they say here, “pilo”. In my country they say get your act together, wise up. Here it says you have to be that…

Fighter. 
Fighter, you have to get up.

Also get your act together. 
Yes, your act together, but if you get your act together, doors are, people close the doors a lot. Yes, yes, really. In other words, workwise is a game.

And what was good, what made you feel good, what was good in general, here… 
In general?

Or your stay here. 
My stay here is that in comparison with my country, due to the circumstances to which I came, I felt a little safer.

Okay, security then.
Safety, security, uh, that’s the only thing.

And can you describe how living here has made you feel after going through these experiences, for example? Did it make you feel good, more or less, different? 
I couldn’t explain that part to you, I really don’t know how… how to explain it to you. In a single word I have to go out and fight every day as an immigrant. I have to go out and fight every day. 

In other words, being strong. 
Strong, that’s right. More than all the… the strength, you have to go out and fight regardless of the fact that they are going to take advantage of you, that people are going to pay you what is not… you just work. That’s the part. And really, what worries me the most? That you – they don’t make you a contract because you don’t have papers, you’re an immigrant. Let’s say it like how we say in my country: they use you. In a single word, they use you and they pay you what you – what they want. Or other times they tell you “I’m going to pay you €6 where an hour can be worth €2,” in which the job is exhausting, as it happened to me. I say this from my experience of working up to 17 hours because the product had to be delivered and the payday had come and they didn’t pay you; they don’t even give you half your salary. Or they owe you €700, they come out with €150 and say “I’m going to pay you,” and you keep working for the fortnight because of fear of being unemployed. So I’m still working and have to live with that €150 for another 15 days and then risk everything, to get paid when you feel like it. That’s what I’ve seen here. This is not, possibly, the case for everyone; but I speak from experience, because it has happened to me – that they take great advantage of the immigrant at work, the exploitation. And since you don’t have documents, then you can’t do anything. Let’s say it that way: you have no way to go and report, you have nothing. And let’s say in my case that I’m in the asylum process. So the fear is that if I go and report it, I get my resume dirty and it may come back against me. 

Yes, of course. 
Yes, so you have, as we say- there is also here, despite the fact that we are in Europe, the law that you have to eat in silence.

Sure, yes. And depending on the answer to the question, how does it feel to be away from the rest of your family or your home? How? How does it affect you? How does the feeling of not belonging, that is, of not belonging, of belonging, discrimination, stigma affect you? If you can describe it. 
[laughs] The stigma? Well, the concern that I know that I had to immigrate and that I had to come here for my safety. I have it clear; I can’t do anything, I can’t back down, I have to be strong. And as for the stigma… It’s my turn to play crazy. Yes. It’s my turn to play crazy, keep going. Wisely, do it like a donkey: the more dirt they throw at me, the more I’ll ride it to get ahead.

And how does being away from the rest of your family or your home make you feel? What do you feel when, when you remember it? 
Wow! Speechless.

Usually emotions are total sadness, sorrow. Does that make you feel that way, bad? 
[Moved] Of course, obviously. Obviously it makes me feel bad because I really don’t have to be living what… What I have to live through. And you often think “I’m not going to leave,” and you think you’re going to find the doors open, as we popularly say, knowing what they call luck. Nothing. It’s no use to know if the doors are closed. Yes and yes, yes and no; only that. The saddest thing is to take advantage of someone. As if, as if- because you hear nothing but bad proposals. Yes, it really is, it’s very hard to say, but it’s the…

It makes you feel bad. 
Yes, of course, it makes me… it makes me feel bad. That’s better said in simple terms, I say. In my country I was everything. In my country I was a businesswoman. Here I am nothing and that – I understand that. Yes. Here, no; as immigrants, we are worthless.

If you want we can for example take a moment. If you want to drink water, wait. Are you sure? 
No, no. [laughs] Sure, it’s okay. [laughs].

I understand you perfectly well. 
Yes, here, no; here, we are nothing. If anything, well it’s like… Let’s not say as an object because, everything depends on you, as far as you are the one who allows – the one who pulls out the shield and says no more or no more work, or… but yes, it’s a matter of struggle, as I say, to go out into the street, fight, get ahead, and wait.

And did you ever imagine that you could handle this situation? 
Hmm. Not really. Over the course of my life, no.

You never imagined that you could handle this situation. 
No, no, no, no, no, not really.

But how, how have you, how have you managed to overcome or survive with it or live with it? How have you succeeded? 
That’s a nice question. [laughs] A question that… that doesn’t really have, it doesn’t have… For me it is a question that has no strength. The question is to fight every day. And if I can’t [fight] here, then I can [fight] there. And I’m one of those people, I don’t get involved with like… I don’t let my mind loose. I live day to day. I’m fine; breakfast, lunch, I eat; and as I tell you, the food supply I go to – a community kitchen – regardless of the fact that I have to go to a community kitchen when I’m used to having everything.

Okay, and do you think you developed the capacity to face these challenges? Or do you think you always had those skills or strengths, or mechanisms par excellence? 
I think I studied it par excellence.

You mean, you’ve had it before. 
Uh, yeah. I’ve had it for a long time… I had a hard time. I think it was even harder than it is now.

It could, for example, be interpreted as an old experience. And it made you strong or something like that, right? 
Yes. Let’s just say… let’s put it that way. That’s why I gave you the metaphor of the old donkey: the bad things that happen to me I use as good things. 

The memories, in other words, the memories made you strong. 
They made me strong. And my lifestyle is that I will not give up. Yes, that’s my… I will not give up. I will go forward.

All right, all right, so, uh, the question is… Why did you leave your country? If you can describe what actually happened. And if you want, in detail but that’s it, according to you. 
Yes, let’s see in detail. As I told you, I was a businesswoman. Crime brought me to where I am. I was extorted. The time came when I no longer had money to pay for the extortion. The day they arrived for the extortion they told me, “Madre, so how are we going to fix this?” And to fix this was two shots. [laughs] Two shots – well, I laugh so I don’t cry, because you have two options in life: Either you laugh or you cry, and I already cried. I chose to say, “There is only that. If it works for you, take it and take it out.” And the guy took it. I reported it, and luckily there were cameras around. They caught the criminal gang – which, by the way, they already had several accusations for – and I was not filled with fear because the truth was not fear that brought me here. I was filled with courage that since I have been such a fighter and pushed forward. I said “I have to stop along the way or it’s what I do or it’s my life.” And I was totally disappointed. And I sold. And here I am.

How did it make you feel at the time? 
What did I feel at that time? That it was all over. In other words, on the business side and on my side, it’s as if it had ceased to exist. 

In those hard times, you felt, for example, alone, isolated, alone in the world, it can be… 
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, that’s how I really felt. Yes. And…

Did you feel like… 
Yes, yes, yes. So, as I told you, I felt like I was in a capsule. That’s why I told you, I felt totally isolated in that… phew! That is something that can’t be described…

Alone. 
Alone. And I felt death at…There is something that… yes, there, there – And that’s why I said, “Take that.” And when I already felt… Well, the guy came out. I closed the doors and called the police and – I have a son who talks to him a lot. Fortunately he studies psychosocial work; he hugged me and said these words to me: “Only you are clear about what you have to do.” And with that he told me everything and I made the decision that it would sell and, with the luck that the good influences bought it, I sold it and I’m here; but it’s something – let’s not say it is hard. Rough, let’s say so. Rough because you feel alone, you feel in a capsule. You feel, in my case, that it was an abyss, that my life could have gone like this in an instant. If that’s what…

And how was the trip here? Are there any particularly difficult experiences that you can tell us, for example?
Getting here was difficult, of course, very difficult. Because first of all, in my country I had my house, my economy, everything was very good. I had to jump the stairs, let’s say; I didn’t have to go one by one, but three by three. I had to make too many jumps that were too risky; and regardless, I had to leave my family. My daughters, all of them, had to change their houses so that people wouldn’t be able to locate them. What else? Yes, I had to leave everything. That’s the part, let’s say, the most difficult part, and it was something that even I can’t explain, because he said – because I said I’m going to do it and everything was done over the course of, you can say, almost for a whole month. Everything was like that, like a somewhat blind person. I arrived here like when an order or a package arrives, let’s say it like that. You’re going to be the package. They put you there, they release you and see what you’re going to do. That was my case. Yes, yes, without knowing… not knowing anyone. Without knowing. 

And how did that make you feel? 
I was full of courage. 

You felt courageous. 
I felt courageous. Very courageous. I tell you honestly because the first thing I did was get… I arrived at the hotel and I rested that day. I got to know a little. Then I reflected. I walked like crazy the second day because – it’s called crazy, like a dog without an owner. [laughs]. Yes, let’s put it that way. Searching, ah! The saddest experience was that I knocked on many doors on the way to the authorities, let’s say so. I went there, I went there to a lot of people and they played me like a soccer ball, like a child’s ball: “No. Do you see, there? Do you see, there? Do you see, there? Do you see, there? Do you see, there?” And none of them agreed. I came one time, to an institution, let’s put it that way. It’s not a… it’s another… It’s like a refugee center. I don’t remember. I’m even going to find out. Well, I remember that it was in L’Hospitalet and even though I commented on my story, they told me “No. You can’t. You have to go there and you have to wait.” Yes. Go there and you have to… you have to wait regardless, as human beings, because globally we are all the same because of our red blood. So that’s why I’m talking about racism and classism.

Do you often think about these events? 
Of course, of course, because I’m a fighter, and that’s what worries me most: discrimination.

And that when, when do you think about it? When do you think about it? When does the idea of thinking about these experiences occur to you? 
When? Well, I think that right away, because I’ve been courageous; because right now, even though I’m an immigrant and I’m going to a community kitchen, the people you meet [are] many.You can’t imagine the number of people there are here in Barcelona, which is very sad. People in need on the street. Lack of bread, lack of a blanket, lack of a coat, lack of a shirt. And I think that if humanity existed a little more, the world would be different. 

And is there anything in particular that you often think about? An experience, well, some specific detail, for example. 
Related to what?

Related to, to this topic of… 
With this topic… I think if this really becomes, as I say, a chain – let’s put it that way. Your hand, your hand, mine, it can be achieved.

And then…? 
It would be better. It would be the best because…

And when you think about it like that, how do you feel when you think about this, specifically? 
In this regard specifically. I think you can keep on going. With each other better said. United.

You feel that it could, could be a love between human beings. 
Yes, that’s right. As I tell you, if we changed our way of thinking, there wouldn’t be so much suffering. 

Solidarity. 
Solidarity. Let’s talk about solidarity.

That is, you feel, you feel love. 
Yes, yes, really yes.

It could be love, solidarity, it could be… 
Yes, because at least I have bread because I go there and I know that. I know, “No, they give it to me.” And yet, some don’t have it. And if they close the door and lack knowledge because they go there, maybe they give you the wrong information because of the details that they send you. You knock on doors and they close them and send you the other way. That is, they distract you before, as we say.

All right. And does it make you feel love? 
Yes.

And does the situation you faced affect you today, but in what way? If it does affect you. 
Wow! I’m honest with you. It doesn’t even affect me [laughs]. Yes, yes. As I tell you, that makes me stronger because I don’t even think about it. Just the big question is the reason why I’m here and I tell myself if I’m here, is for a reason, and what I’m saying is that I’m not going to give up. I’m going to fight. Here I am and here I will stay. 

That’s great, that’s great, that’s great. Did you ever imagine that you could handle that situation so well? 
Never. It’s just that I never imagined that I could emigrate from my country. [laughs] In other words, I laugh because I swear to you that I had everything there. Everything. There I got up. In my country I didn’t know hunger, I didn’t know the need. I was always, let’s put it that way, a courageous person. I managed staff, was a quality auditor and businesswoman, I educated my children, and I never imagined that something would happen that would bring me here, that I would have to face nothing. Like the one on the island. [laughs] Yes, you get here, you put yourself here and it’s the reality of the world. You have nothing and you’re worthless. But here I am and here I will stay. That’s… It’s my turn to fight. And maybe the situation would be different if there really were…

And how were you able to survive or overcome these situations? That is, if you have created a strategy or coping mechanism to overcome difficult moments or painful memories. 
Wow! I’m not going to say education or anything. None of those things. I think that… I actually think I’m made of stone [laughs]. The painful moments… I have had difficult and strong things in my life.

Surely you find strength and support somewhere, don’t you? Where do you find them, for example? Strength and support. 
In some, let’s say, in some institutions… Let’s say it this way: an open letter, the State. You go – let’s say, I’m not going to speak like a woman, I’m talking like a human being. How is it that you go and you know that you are a total immigrant, that you are vulnerable? Because it’s not just a child who is vulnerable. You come from a country, from a country that is from Africa, from Latin America, from Morocco, from China, from wherever you come. And you come here with only a suitcase with three changes of clothes, a pair of shoes or some flip flops, a toothbrush, and possibly a bottle of water – if you managed to buy it because nothing else came in. You go, you knock on an institution. They give you where you can go to lunch for three days, and after the three days they tell you to wait 20 days to be able to get a food stamp. Those 20 days go by, as happened to me in my case. I speak for myself and I consider myself to be very clever because, as I tell you, I looked like a bird; I walked and walked and knocked on doors one after the other. After 20 days it didn’t arrive. So I go again and say “Okay, what happened? Look, you told me 20 days.” “No, but you don’t show up here, you show up there.” Then, after going up and down with a piece of paper in your hand, from one community kitchen to another: “No, you’ve already missed all three, you’ve already spent so much time,” and so on. I mean, you look like a kid’s ball. One pulls you, then the other pulls you, like this. I think it would be better to coordinate what I told you before a person arrived… Let’s be clear, I’m going to give you this, come here, you’re going to be here, you’re going to eat here or something here. Let’s see what to do with you… But no, there’s really a lack of, I think, communication or love. 

And before the event that led you to flee your home, what was your dream? For example, um, before that event, my dream was… For example. What was your dream before the event what happened to you there? 
My dream was to continue being a businesswoman. I had a textile company and generated employment. I was creating employment in my country. I was a job creator. That was my dream, to continue to generate employment, and to help those in need, because that’s what I did in my country. The one who employed me, I employed him back. The one who didn’t know how to work, I helped him and taught him; and if I saw that he had the skills, I would employ him, or I would say: “Go there and maybe they can help you there.” Institutions – people who didn’t have health services, I would take them to the mayor’s office to take out the “Sisbén” (system of Identification of the social programs beneficiaries). I would give a hand to whoever I could. 

And when you were leaving home, what was your dream for the future? I mean, what did you dream, what did you dream about? 
Getting here? And when you arrive, when you leave your country and you arrive in Europe, let’s say, in my case, here in Barcelona – I said no, as far as I know, I’m going to get settled and I’m really going to have a salary, as it happens… I’m a Latina in Medellín. The hour in Medellin, let’s say, is worth $4,500. People pay you that $4,500; they’ll never tell you no, because you’re new and you don’t know how to work, I’m only going to pay you $2,000. No.

In other words, you, you, you dreamed of, of a decent life, with a standard. 
It’s correct, with dignified work standards.

And you dreamt it that way. 
I dreamt it that way and that’s how I saw it, and it didn’t happen to me in that way. Initially, I had to start working. Phew!

You were dreaming of a good way of life. 
That’s right, with a good way of life. I said – well, my project was that I picked up a calculator and I said: “No, I’m starting to earn so much and I’m already installed in a month, I can survive.” And it turned out that, no, that initially immigrants never get paid what they really… People pay you a salary lower than – actually, not even 50% of the… And if you get paid like I told you the story – Yes. So that’s denigrating, that’s really denigrating for… So instead of giving somebody a hand, helping us to move forward, they help us to sink more. Yes.

And before leaving your home country, what were your strengths? I mean, the, the… Have you kept them? If so, uh, how? Or else because… 
Have they declined? No. My strengths are still there. That has helped me to get ahead. Actually, yes. That’s why I tell you no, no, here I am, here I’ll stay, and I’m not going to give up. Yes, yes. No, no, I’m not one of those people who, like, go to bed crying every day. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not really.

And what you’ve been through seems really difficult. Do you feel that you have grown in any way as a result of this experience or has something positive come out of it? 
The positive thing is that I have become stronger. I have become stronger. 

Very good. 
Me… Yes.

Very good. All right. And what are your hopes and dreams for the future? Now that, for example. What, what is your dream now? 
My dream is that as… Asking for refuge, to really achieve that goal, that they let me stay here so that I can work with dignity, workwise that… Yes, try… Yes, support those who need it. 

Thank you very much for answering all those questions. Is there anything you would like to add that could help people better understand refugee life here? 
Of course it is. I would like to contribute something: that I don’t see the reason that if you’re a good human being and you have good behaviors, for what reason do they treat you with so much racism? Why do they deny you opportunities? That’s something that I can’t understand. Why do you have to have a document or a permit, why do you have to go hungry and walk away, as we say? Six months, one year, whichever is the least… You have eight months to get, if you’re lucky, a one-year work permit. And as human beings, how much do you have to suffer, how many streets… how much hunger do you have to endure if you really… If they close your doors? How much cold have you had to endure on the street? Needs in general to obtain a work permit… And from there, how long does it take for you to get a work permit to get a decent job to be able to work? I think that if this were not the case, at least- it takes two or three months to wait for: “Come, let’s do an interview.” As a businesswoman, I’m trying to make an agreement with the government: I need him, he is good, I will employ him; you don’t have a permit, but I can help you get it. Look at talent because it’s a matter of talent; and really, people are wasting those who really have talent. And the other is if you don’t have it, every human being has abilities. Every human being has capacities and you simply have to look at what capacity they really have, what the human being has; and helping is a matter of, as I told you, a chain: my hand, your hand, we form a chain and there is a strong force. Well, I think so, because I experienced it and I did it as a businesswoman, without so much denigration because you’re black, because you’re white, because you’re missing teeth, because you limp… No, I have to look at the ability and values of the human being and then there you can judge and if you don’t have it, get out of it what you can get out of it. 

Thank you very much for sharing this with us and thank you for the encouragement. 
[laughs] Sure. Of course.

Thanks a lot to you. Thank you.