Shahin Kartal

full interview

Can you tell me where you live? And how is the situation?
Now?

Yes.
I live alone in Istanbul. My family is in my own country and I don’t have any acquaintance or relatives here.

Thanks. How are your living conditions? Did you say that you live alone?
Living in Istanbul is difficult because the cost of living is high. To live in Istanbul, we must have strong financial support because foreigners are not easily employed. And if we find a job, there is no social service insurance. There is no such thing as pension for foreigners.

How do you spend your time? Like when you wake up in the morning … ah…
I spend my day like this. How do I spend my day?… ummm … my job is working out. One of the reasons I love this country is that it has a playground for exercising. When I wake up in the morning, I do exercise. And if… ummm… I find a customer on a daily basis; I will work as an interpreter or a masseur.

Thanks. What are the good things and what are the problems since you came to this country? 
When I came to Turkey from Iran in 2017, the cost of living was exactly the same as in Iran. And I could transfer a monthly income from Iran to here. And this made me stay here and learn the language and start working instead of emigrating to America. But with the passage of time, the costs increased terribly. I saw different things from the Turks and my opinion about Turkey has changed and I have a strong need to emigrate.

You say that you saw different things from Turks. For example, what things did you see?
As an emigrant, you can’t live comfortably like in American, European and Canadian countries. They blame refugees for all the problems in their country. Political, economic, health problems and all these problems are blamed on the emigrant. They have ridiculous reasons. This country has very ignorant people.

You mentioned discrimination, economic problems and difficult conditions. How do you feel when you experience these problems?
Wherever I go in Turkey, the first question is where is your country? They do not see us as human beings. If they like your country, they will like you, and if they don’t like your country, they won’t like you. I have many Syrian friends who cannot say in front of Turks that they are Syrians because they feel a strong hatred towards Syrians. Afghans have problems and Iranians sometimes say that we are Iranians, Turks say that Iranians have beautiful women and girls. They have a misconception about all people. Some people thought that Iranians speak Arabic. They are not literate to know what language they speak in their neighboring country Iran. One hundred percent of people in this country are ignorant people. Many of these people I see do not want to go to university at all. When they go to university, they don’t have the courage to go to work. We conclude that these are worthless people. Do you understand what I’m saying?

How do you feel when these things happen to you? What is your mood? 
Maybe I don’t think about it once or twice, but every time Turks discriminate against me, I get very upset. In the fitness club I go to, the monthly fee is 300 to 500 liras for Turkish people, but for me it is 650 liras, and they say that they gave me a discount. This itself is discrimination. In the bank line, when I take my turn, a Turk comes and does his work before me and leaves. When we ask someone a question, they treat us badly. I remember that I had a motorcycle. They stopped my motorcycle at the checkpoint. I gave the engine documents and the documents were complete. They told me that I should have my passport with me. I said that I have permission to stay in Turkey. What is the need for a passport? And I even showed the copy of the passport. The answer the police gave me was that don’t touch me, if you do, I will put you in jail.

For any reason.
He told me not to touch him. I said that I am here to deal with my bike.

A-hm… A-hm.
To get my motorcycle back from him, I told him, sir, fine me, but don’t take my motorcycle to the parking lot. Why is he taking my bike to the parking lot? Just because he didn’t like me, he told me that if I talk too much and touch him, he will put me in jail. This was very difficult for me. I sold the motorcycle the next day.

You sold the bike. You said that you live here alone and you have been away from your family for several years, how does being away from your family make you feel? 
This… ummm… I think this is a general opinion and everyone feels this way. Many people like me feel comfortable and free when they are away from home and family. Some people feel sad. It gives me a feeling of comfort and freedom, but when my mother calls me and doesn’t tell me anything, and later I realize that I want to go to my mother immediately, but I can’t. Because I can’t be unemployed. If I don’t work for a week, the cost of living may triple. I can’t help my family in any way. Sometimes I send them souvenirs. Sometimes I send them money. And this helps not to feel being far from them.

Sure. How does it make you feel when you think about it? 
The most interesting part is why our destiny is always to work and live in another country as a refugee. Why couldn’t we live and work in our own country? I wish these conditions were in our own country. If we feel close to the people in Turkey, on the contrary, they will try to destroy us because we are foreigners. I am always a foreigner here and I have no way to become a citizen here and I plan to emigrate from here as well.

Questions about the past. What made you leave your country?
I had to leave my country because of the security and economic conditions of my country. If I want to talk about it, it will be a very long story. According to the field of study that I studied in Iran, the working conditions were very difficult and were similar to the current conditions in Turkey. Iran had no economic and security stability. If the police shot someone in the street, no one had the right to protest. Because there was no progress with round-the-clock work and there were even setbacks. These reasons made me emigrant. Even with a hundred other voices, I cannot change the government of my country. There is no such thing as international law in my country. The law of the country is important for them. If we want to fight with them, we may even lose our lives. And even if we come together, we may lose our lives together. It is better to change the place of residence.

Thanks. When you leave your country. Ummm… were there problems and difficulties for you in the beginning?
Let me explain it to you like this. I had not traveled to any country until 2017. And the only language I knew apart from my mother tongue was English. I didn’t know very well, it was the same as what I had learned in university. And my English was not very good because I had a job after university and did not deal with English. In Turkey, I could not even buy a bottle of water. And six months before the trip, I learned the basics of the Turkish language. Because my family line was not from Turkey, it was very difficult for me. I learned a few words. What do you call night and day? And I had to bear the cost of another person because his Turkish language was good to help me.

Thank you. You said that you did not know the language.
Yes.

You said that you didn’t know about Turkey and because Turkey is a neighbor of Iran, but you had no information about it. How did you feel at that time? For example, the first time you came here and saw that you don’t know the language and everything is completely new. What feeling did you have?
In addition to bad people, there are also good people. Some Turkish people who were living around were very nice. The old generation of Turkey was happy to hear the name of Iran. During the time of the Shah, one of their family members worked in Iran. But the new and middle generation were racist and fascist. They said that no one should enter our country. I remember once I was speaking English and a Turk stopped me and said that you should speak Turkish when you come to the Republic of Turkey. And he said that I have no reason to learn English. I’ve never seen an ignorant person such as him in any part of the world. While the main income of this country is from tourists, they are not willing to learn English to communicate with the world. They just want to say that their country is historical. And this ignorance is very big. When I want to buy something, they look at me first and then tell me the price. It gives different prices to everyone. You understand what I am saying. I could not even speak Farsi with my roommate in the subway. We fought many times in the subway. They used to tell us why you speak another language. And this problem was only for Iranians and sometimes it happened to Europeans as well. If we have money, everyone loves us. But if we are financially weak and cannot give extra money, we have no value.

You said that something happened and he asked you if this is Turkey and speak Turkish and not English. Did you feel fear, insecurity and discomfort?
In 2017, I was speaking Farsi with my friend at 11 pm in the subway and our voices were a little loud. It was not crowded. A lady was sleeping and we didn’t notice at all. The lady’s head was on her feet. The lady jumped in the middle of our conversation with a loud voice and I didn’t understand what she was saying. An old man said to her ‘My daughter, they did nothing to annoy you, you are annoying them yourself.’ The girl shouted at the old man. This was from 2017. Four days ago, in 2023, my cousin and I were going up the escalator in Osmanbey metro. And I was looking in my cousin’s direction and then a lady behind me told me to get away from me. I said to the lady that I’m looking at a different direction and that she was behind me. She told me to go away. She was ill-mannered and exposed. I told the lady that I am far from you and I have no business with you. These clashes may happen in my country as well. Just because I spoke Farsi with my family, this lady decided to cause such a scene. After 7 years of living in this country, it is really hard to see such scenes.

Thanks. You said that this incident happened to you a few days ago when you were with your cousin and talking to your family. How did you feel when this happened? 
After 6–7 years of trying to learn the language of a country and speak like the people of that country, a very small incident made me feel very bad that after all these years they still see me as a refugee and do not respect me. This is a very bad feeling, not only for me, but for anyone who tries to fit in this country and tries to become like them and respect the law. All the hard work I have done is suddenly nothing. I had to explain to them for an hour why this lady behaved like this. I explain to him in Turkish that I didn’t do anything, but she just screams and doesn’t want to understand. And that doesn’t feel good to anyone and gives a sense of humiliation. For the next two hours, I still remembered why this lady did this. She was not a lady; I would say that she was ignorant and middle-aged. She was a young lady, maybe 27 or 28 years old. If you are upset about something else, why bother a foreigner? This gives a very bad feeling. If I have made a mistake and I am fined for my mistake, that is not a problem. But if you don’t do anything, you will feel very inferior. And all people focus. And it gives a very bad feeling.

You talked about your feelings and had very bad experiences. There have been incidents that have made you feel inferior. How do you deal with these tensions? What solutions do you have to deal with these problems?
I can’t forget the feeling of humiliation and insult in any way, I just try to get over it. This feeling does not affect my body, it affects my soul. I have a very bad feeling. If I am not a wise person, I might take revenge and I will be uneducated. These must be treated. After 7 years, this has become normal for me. If someone asks me where I am from and I say Iran, his way of looking and talking will be different to me. I’m used to this, but sometimes I get very angry. I even have tears in my eyes. When I migrate from a rich country to another country, they look down on me. And this issue has no solution. I just have to forget.

How do you forget these issues?
I think that this country has 80 million people and this is one person out of 80 million. I also interacted with good people. And their good people are more than bad ones. I try to forget it anyway.

How does it make you feel to meet good people in your daily life?
A sense of intimacy. Yesterday we went to have fun with my Turkish friends and they asked us for ID. Asking where you are from, I said that I am Iranian and my other friends are Turkish. They laughed and said we are all Turks and we have no difference. This feeling of intimacy makes me feel good. It’s like going to have fun with my friends in my own country.

Very good. You told the story of your life and do you think that your current life is different from when you left Iran? Is the person you were then different from the person you are now?
Migration has benefits for everyone, and exactly after migration, the person is not the same person. I have gained this energy and strength that I can change my life. If the country is not good, I have to migrate to another country. It has made me stronger and has given me a strong confidence that I can improve. If I want a better life, I should try my best in a better country.

It is very great. thanks. Have you created a mechanism to deal with discrimination? Because you said that these things happen from time to time. 
We can do a series of things so that we can live in this country more easily. If someone doesn’t like you, try not to deal with them. If a place does not make you feel intimate and humiliates you, try to go there less. I remember that I asked a woman in the gym how long you can work with this machine. She said half an hour. I was surprised and I said half an hour. Her boyfriend came and argued with me and said I will see you outside. I said okay, stand outside and I will see you. Five minutes later, I saw him come and say that you are Iranian and wanted to make up for his mistake. I said that I was not rude to the lady, I just asked her how many minutes do you have to work with this machine? After her, I will do my own. I have to fight for some things and ignore some things. If I insult a tribe in this. Maybe all its people will come after my house and kill me. But there is no problem with what I did in the gym. Everything comes back to the logic and intelligence of a person, what should we do and what should we not do? I got this experience after 7 years.

Very good. Thank you. We are at the end of the interview. I have a short question for you. What was your dream before you left your country? You can say that my dream was that.
It is still my dream to live a peaceful life.

A peaceful life?
Yes. Peace of mind is important to me. In my country, the meaning of peace is summed up in money. In this country, the meaning of peace is reduced to money and nationality. For me, peace is a stress-free life. As an Iranian, I lived with full stress. Now the economic situation in Turkey has reached the level that I had before in Iran and I want to emigrate from here. I know that if I stay here, I will be like I was in Iran. Many of my Iranian friends have returned to Iran because there is no difference between Turkey and Iran. Even some things are better in Iran and the costs are lower. I can’t go back to Iran because if I go back, life will be stressful. It’s not much different from here, but the stress makes me feel destroyed. Even stress makes me unable to sleep and eat properly. For me, progress is a peaceful life.

Excellent. Your dream has not changed yet.
No, it hasn’t. My dream hasn’t changed.

Summarize in one sentence: that was my dream before leaving my country. 
Before I left my country, my dream was a peaceful life, and even if I go to the third or fourth country, my dream is a peaceful life.

Very good. Thank you.